Coops

Bottled LPG Cooker Hob

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Hi Folks, hope somebody can advise me... I've had a new freestanding dual fuel cooker delivered - gas/electric. After days of ringing around I couldn't get a gas safe registered installer interested in fitting this side of Christmas.. Although one chap did agree to certify my installation in the new year if I went ahead and installed. He said he would inspect, make any necessary mods and certify at the time of visiting. Obviously I want to minimise or eliminate entirely any remedial works. 

 

My query really centres around what is considered as 'concealed' when using  compression fitting, does this simply mean hidden within the fabric of the building under floor boards or stud walls (i.e risk of gas building up in cavity) or does the term 'concealed' also include a run of pipework behind a base unit at plinth level? 

 

Any help much appreciated, and yes, I know I should be waiting for a GSR installer, but needs must. 

 

Cheers 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Coops said:

Although one chap did agree to certify my installation in the new year if I went ahead and installed

He is a brave GasSafe man then.

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I self installed in my new build and had a chap sign it off afterwards. Plastic gas pipe buried outside from cylinders to outside kitchen, convert to copper before entering the building (as no plastic pipe inside in case of fire melting it), bayonet fitting on wall fir flexible gas pipe to cooker. Tested and  passed 👍. Just make sure you test all joints with washing up liquid in water and a brush (like you would to find a puncture) when pressurised.

Edited by joe90
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2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I self installed in my new build and had a chap sign it off afterwards. Plastic gas pipe buried outside from cylinders to outside kitchen, convert to copper before entering the building (as no plastic pipe inside in case of fire melting it), bayonet fitting on wall fir flexible gas pipe to cooker. Tested and  passed 👍.

Nice one Joe, was the penetration into the building right behind cooker or was there a run leading up to it? 

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3 minutes ago, Coops said:

Nice one Joe, was the penetration into the building right behind cooker or was there a run leading up to it? 

The penetration was right behind the cooker and sleeved with expanding foam to make airtight. I was told gas pipe must not have joins within any cavity so if it leaked gas could not build up without being noticed.

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32 minutes ago, joe90 said:

The penetration was right behind the cooker and sleeved with expanding foam to make airtight. I was told gas pipe must not have joins within any cavity so if it leaked gas could not build up without being noticed.

Yes, that's my understanding too, penetration will be sleeved with conduit and foamed 

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We have plastic covere  copper pipe all way from regulator on the bottles to Britannia dual fuel cooker. Comes up through floor behind it. Think we have one joint outdoors underground. Wrapped in denzo tape.

Edited by Temp
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Just for info.. our regulator/auto changeover has a pressure gauge which can be used to test for leaks. You just turn off the gas bottle and see if the pressure in the pipe to the cooker falls overnight.

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1 minute ago, Temp said:

Just for info.. our regulator/auto changeover has a pressure gauge which can be used to test for leaks. You just turn off the gas bottle and see if the pressure in the pipe to the cooker falls overnight.

That is a brilliant device.

Is it compulsory?

We have changeover regulators at work, may see if they do that as well.

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50 minutes ago, Temp said:

Just for info.. our regulator/auto changeover has a pressure gauge which can be used to test for leaks. You just turn off the gas bottle and see if the pressure in the pipe to the cooker falls overnight.

I've seen these, seems a very sensible idea

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1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

That is a brilliant device.

Is it compulsory?

We have changeover regulators at work, may see if they do that as well.

 

It works with any system that has a pressure gauge in the pipe to the stove. Think it was just part of the installation procedure for the auto change over.. You connect everything then open the bottle to briefly pressurise the pipe to the stove then shut it off and leave it overnight to see if it falls. If there is a leak you only loose the gas in the pipe not whole 47og bottle.

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1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

That is a brilliant device.

Is it compulsory?

We have changeover regulators at work, may see if they do that as well.

Even if they don't have a pressure gauge built in, the changeover regulator usually incorporates a test nipple onto which the gas engineer plugs his manometer with a hose to do the drop test.

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3 hours ago, joe90 said:

Just make sure you test all joints with washing up liquid in water and a brush (like you would to find a puncture) when pressurised.


Or buy a can of this …. Much better and more reliable. 
 

https://www.toolstation.com/action-can-ld-90-gas-leak-detector/p65456

 

@Coops if you’re bending coated copper pipe then use a 50mm pipe fitting as a former and do it slowly. Also be very wary cutting the coating off the pipe, use a sharp Stanley knife and only cut in a radial manner, never slit the coating along its length. Best way is to cut the coating off in short sections and twist it off. Also buy a proper adjustable pipe cutter and only use that to cut the copper pipe. 
 

… and never use flexi pipe and jubilee clips on gas pipe inside a building !! EVER !!

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5 minutes ago, PeterW said:


Or buy a can of this …. Much better and more reliable. 
 

https://www.toolstation.com/action-can-ld-90-gas-leak-detector/p65456

 

@Coops if you’re bending coated copper pipe then use a 50mm pipe fitting as a former and do it slowly. Also be very wary cutting the coating off the pipe, use a sharp Stanley knife and only cut in a radial manner, never slit the coating along its length. Best way is to cut the coating off in short sections and twist it off. Also buy a proper adjustable pipe cutter and only use that to cut the copper pipe. 
 

… and never use flexi pipe and jubilee clips on gas pipe inside a building !! EVER !!

Cheers Peter, haha, no bbq style hose you'll be glad to hear😄. I'm hard tubing all the way to the valve, I'm just using 15mm copper tube with compression fittings. All above ground. 

2 hours ago, Temp said:

Just for info.. our regulator/auto changeover has a pressure gauge which can be used to test for leaks. You just turn off the gas bottle and see if the pressure in the pipe to the cooker falls overnight.

I've seen these, seems a very sensible idea

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Peter would have been referring to coated copper pipe, not BBQ hose.

if using bare copper then insulation will probably be needed as well as an isolating coat or wrap to prevent cement attack or abrasion damage

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Never push a raw copper pipe through a wall. 21.5mm overflow pipe is pennies a length and can easily be installed - then just seal round the inner pipe with Low Mod sealant. Works with anything up to 15mm pipe and stops you scoring the pipe. 

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4 minutes ago, markc said:

Peter would have been referring to coated copper pipe, not BBQ hose.

if using bare copper then insulation will probably be needed as well as an isolating coat or wrap to prevent cement attack or abrasion damage

I didn't even know you used jubilee clips on flexible pipe? 😜

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1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Never push a raw copper pipe through a wall. 21.5mm overflow pipe is pennies a length and can easily be installed - then just seal round the inner pipe with Low Mod sealant. Works with anything up to 15mm pipe and stops you scoring the pipe. 

Indeed, I'm actually using 25mm electrical conduit as it the OD works with the 28mm sds I'm using 👍

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Thanks to all for contributing - I understand the importance of eliminating any joints within voids to prevent possible gas build up, but i'm still a little unclear on the guidelines covering 'accessibility' of compression fittings versus soldered joints. Am I right in thinking compression fittings would need to be readily visible and therefore quickly serviced in the event of a leak, but soldered joints are seen to more reliable and can be hidden behind kitchen cabinetry etc? Does 'accessible' mean at low level behind a kick plate or clipped to the front? I suspect the answer is non conclusive and depends exactly how each GS fitter decides to interpret? 

 

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22 hours ago, Coops said:

Or pragmatic

Or an idiot. Anyone who signs off a gas pipe, that they have not witnessed the integrity of for every inch of the pipe, is a danger to themselves and others. It would be different if it was a friend or fellow plumber who's work was known to them, but for a one-off for a self-builder it is just lunacy.

The sleeve through the wall should be copper, or a rigid PVC and NOT flexible electrical conduit ( as it is weak as a kitten and very easy to puncture. The sleeve should be sealed into the wall at each end, and then the pipe passed through the sleeve. The pipe should then be sealed with a sealant on the internal side only, so if the pipe ever failed the build-up of gas could only ever discharge to outside, not fill the house.

That's the minimum standard I observe when passing a gas pipe through a cavity wall. 

As for compression joints, there should be ZERO compression joints other than at the source and at the appliance. Surface mounted anywhere else is a huge bodge and would never get past me. Compression anywhere on continuous gas runs = NO, simply do NOT use them, there is no need. If this is to save money to DIY, go save money somewhere else, this is just a daft idea.

Edited by Nickfromwales
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7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Surface mounted anywhere else is a huge bodge and would never get past me

 

 

but is it legal or not?

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3 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

but is it legal or not?

Exposed is legal, sadly, just hugely frowned upon with every person I have ever undertaken gas work with over the last 25 years. Just never done it. If you can get a spanner in there, you can get a blowlamp in there too.

If compression is to be used, then the pipe needs to be mechanically fixed very robustly, so there is never any stress on the fitting. Downstream rotational force needs to be considered also, eg tightening a fitting on a pipe up / down stream of one you've just done can loosen it if the pipe is inadvertently rotated when working on the next. A lot of things to consider but you'd only be aware of these potential issues if you have previous experience and are already "programmed" to mitigate.

The law says you are fine to blow yourself up, but not any other 3rd party, such as wife / child / visitor etc. 

Folk can do what they wish, this is just my 2 cents ;) Just seen a lot of dodgy pipework in my time, some lethal.

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I 100% stand by my previous; that anyone signing off a gas install they've not witnessed being put in, or they didn't just come and pull in themselves, is a danger. You just don't play with gas, end of.

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