ASHP acoustic cover

[Ommm]

While I have it open, this is the info for Grant.  It's why I'm not entirely happy going with a Grant system:

 

[Dave Jones]

says it all.

 

[IanR]

  On 03/08/2021 at 07:59, Dave Jones said:

says it all.

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Not really, just makes a lot of ignorant statements about a subject he appears to know nothing about.

[joe90]

  On 03/08/2021 at 07:59, Dave Jones said:

says it all.

 

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This just shows where you get your technical data from ?‍♂️

[Brickstressed]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:06, IanR said:

 

Not really, just makes a lot of ignorant statements about a subject he appears to know nothing about.

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Time will tell. I would like to see the birth to death figures. just dusting off my crystal ball.

[IanR]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:32, Brickstressed said:

 

Time will tell. I would like to see the birth to death figures. just dusting off my crystal ball.

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Not sure what you are expecting the passage of time to do. He's provably incorrect now.

[joe90]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:32, Brickstressed said:

Time will tell.

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Have you read the previous threads here on this subject with actual cases of ASHP installations that work very well?.(mine being one of them).  No doubt that Dave’s not one of those but I am sure cowboys will get any kind of installation wrong.

[Dave Jones]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:36, joe90 said:

Have you read the previous threads here on this subject with actual cases of ASHP installations that work very well?.(mine being one of them).  No doubt that Dave’s not one of those but I am sure cowboys will get any kind of installation wrong.

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the betamax video player also worked well.

[IanR]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:36, joe90 said:

No doubt that Dave’s not one of those but I am sure cowboys will get any kind of installation wrong.

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The issue I have with Dave's statements is that we don't actually know what his issue is as he won't provide any detail of his experience. If he'd provide some detail for a discussion we might be able to help drag his head out of the sand.

Edited August 3, 2021 by IanR

[joe90]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:40, IanR said:

 

The issue I have with Dave's statements is that we don't actually know what his issue is as he won't provide any detail of his experience. If he'd provide some detail for a discussion we might be able to drag his head out of the sand.

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I believe I am right in quoting Dave in that an ASHP will not give endless hot water on demand or work in cold weather. Oh, and are very noisy.

Edited August 3, 2021 by joe90

[Dave Jones]

Im not saying and have never said there isn't a place for heat pumps on niche builds where they can be made to work well and people are happy to live with the compromises they bring. 

 

For the mass market they are simply a worse option than a combi in every respect apart from the paperwork/eco side.

 

The only workable and realistic solution for both new build and the aging existing stock is to fix the eco side of combi boilers. Worcester bosche are already hydrogen ready so its a case of how this will be delivered, locally via some device that produces it on demand or via the existing gas network.

 

 

[Dave Jones]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:42, joe90 said:

I believe I am right in quoting Dave in that an ASHP will not give endless hot water on demand or work in cold weather. Oh, and are very noisy.

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perhaps I could pop round and well turn the bath hot tap on and see how long it takes to run cold ?

[IanR]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:46, Dave Jones said:

The only workable and realistic solution for both new build and the aging existing stock is to fix the eco side of combi boilers. Worcester bosche are already hydrogen ready so its a case of how this will be delivered, locally via some device that produces it on demand or via the existing gas network.

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Dave, you need to look in to how Hydrogen is going to be produced in sufficient volume to heat homes. That's after it has satisfied the need for long distance HGVs, Ships and planes for which there is not an electric alternative.

 

In short, it's not going to happen. Hydrogen will be the niche when it comes to heating homes, where using electricity is just not possible. And for those houses that have to rely on Hydrogen the costs will unfortunately be higher than electricity.

 

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:47, Dave Jones said:

 

perhaps I could pop round and well turn the bath hot tap on and see how long it takes to run cold ?

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No need to come around, just work it out for yourself. In my case there's 500l of water at 50°C. Nobody needs endless/limitless hot water, they just require enough to suit their needs.

Edited August 3, 2021 by IanR

[joe90]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:47, Dave Jones said:

 

perhaps I could pop round and well turn the bath hot tap on and see how long it takes to run cold ?

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With my system designed primarily for two people but occasional guests it has never run out of hot water (6 people at max), 300 litres of hot water is more than adequate. ? it’s all about planning the installation properly.

[Dave Jones]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:52, IanR said:

 

Dave, you need to look in to how Hydrogen is going to be produced in sufficient volume to heat homes. That's after it has satisfied the need for long distance HGVs, Ships and planes for which there is not an electric alternative.

 

In short, it's not going to happen. Hydrogen will be the niche when it comes to heating homes, where using electricity is just not possible. And for those houses that have to rely on Hydrogen the costs will unfortunately be higher than electricity.

 

 

No need to come around, just work it out for yourself. In my case there's 500l of water at 50°C. Nobody needs endless/limitless hot water, they just require enough to suit their needs.

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i completely agree hydrogen production either at site or networked isnt there yet. heat pumps are not the answer though.

 

 

[Dave Jones]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:53, joe90 said:

With my system designed primarily for two people but occasional guests it has never run out of hot water (6 people at max), 300 litres of hot water is more than adequate. ? it’s all about planning the installation properly.

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thanks for confirming you have gone back to the 70's with tanks, cylinders and limited hot water. 50p meter running it all ?

 

I jest of course and while it may be a solution for pensioners it certainly isn't viable for a family.

[IanR]

  On 03/08/2021 at 09:58, Dave Jones said:

 

i completely agree hydrogen production either at site or networked isnt there yet. heat pumps are not the answer though.

 

 

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The Government are backing Heat Pumps, and are changing the landscape to enable their mass use, so I have to disagree.
 

  On 03/08/2021 at 09:59, Dave Jones said:

I jest of course and while it may be a solution for pensioners it certainly isn't viable for a family.

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Why not? works fine for my family of 5.

Edited August 3, 2021 by IanR

[willbish]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:46, Dave Jones said:

Im not saying and have never said there isn't a place for heat pumps on niche builds where they can be made to work well and people are happy to live with the compromises they bring. 

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Define niche?

 

I suspect what you consider niche (very well insulated and properly air tight) will, in time, become the norm for all new builds (even poor quality large developer builds). For which ASHP's are ideal. It's clear their prevalence is going to increase and become fully mainstream

[Tony K]

I quite like the skill builder YouTube channel, and I'd recommend it to anyone on here wanting to see building work of different types done well. 

 

I haven't watched the most recent Skill Builder rant about ASHPs (and it is a rant, partly tounge in cheek by the presenter), but I did watch the last, fairly recent one on the topic in which the presenter is perfectly clear that ASHP work fine in a modern, well insulated house - it's the attempted use of them in the wider, older housing stock he takes issue with. 

[epsilonGreedy]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:46, Dave Jones said:

For the mass market they are simply a worse option than a combi in every respect apart from the paperwork/eco side.

 

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For many an ASHP will eliminate one utility supplier with associated supply standing charges.

 

Over a 25 year cost projection a gas boiler maintenance contract for say 18 of those years should be factored in as well though I suppose the jury is till out on whether a combi or ASHP wins on repair costs. My suspicion is that running an outdoor reverse fridge that is exposed to weather will prove costly to maintain between say 5 and 20 years.

[PeterW]

  On 03/08/2021 at 09:59, Dave Jones said:

 

thanks for confirming you have gone back to the 70's with tanks, cylinders and limited hot water. 50p meter running it all ?

 

I jest of course and while it may be a solution for pensioners it certainly isn't viable for a family.

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rubbish again

 

still peddling the combi boiler as being the answer to full mains pressure hot water at a flow rate of more than a small child with a hose pipe ..??

 

You still - 5th time of asking - haven’t justified your position on this using facts. 
 

If you could put some facts down - based on your experience - to back up these claims it would be appreciated. If not, can you stop posting on a subject you plainly know nothing about. 

[jack]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:52, IanR said:

In short, it's not going to happen. Hydrogen will be the niche when it comes to heating homes, where using electricity is just not possible. And for those houses that have to rely on Hydrogen the costs will unfortunately be higher than electricity.

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All this talk of hydrogen - especially pure hydrogen - being fed to boilers is utter nonsense. There's no way you can pipe into people's homes a scentless explosive gas that leaks better than just about any other gas in existence. 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

At best, there's research into diluting natural gas with a small percentage of hydrogen - 20%, say. 

 

And how do you manage a transition from gas to hydrogen? You can't exactly do it gradually, but to do it all at once would require everyone to convert their boilers to be hydrogen-capable all at once. 

 

And finally, the idea of on-site production of hydrogen in the near term is ridiculous. Why would you generate hydrogen inefficiently, only to immediately burn it? Clearly there's no point using it to generate electricity in a fuel cell - you might as well just use the electricity directly. 

 

[joe90]

  On 03/08/2021 at 09:59, Dave Jones said:

 

thanks for confirming you have gone back to the 70's with tanks, cylinders and limited hot water. 50p meter running it all ?

 

I jest of course and while it may be a solution for pensioners it certainly isn't viable for a family.

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what do you really suggest for a well insulated house not on the gas grid? Oil?, bottled gas? I use a “green” electricity supplier who supports non fossil fuel derived supplies. It is true I am a pensioner now but as I pointed out with a house of 6 people my system still coped. I don’t think using a heat pump is going back to the 70,s

Edited August 3, 2021 by joe90

[ToughButterCup]

  On 03/08/2021 at 10:36, jack said:

... utter nonsense. There's no way you can pipe into people's homes a scentless explosive gas that leaks better than just about any other gas in existence. ...

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Lets start with a list of candidates whose houses should have  their very own private supply of ... scentless explosive gas ... I can think of quite a few at the moment.....

[PeterW]

  On 03/08/2021 at 08:47, Dave Jones said:

 

perhaps I could pop round and well turn the bath hot tap on and see how long it takes to run cold ?

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So you can if you wish - bath is 185 litres, tank is 300 litres at 56°C so it will be full in 8 minutes however it won’t run cold until the floor is under approx 30mm of water and the rest is running down the stairs …

 

That 300 litres btw was at a CoP of 3.43 yesterday, and at an overnight run of 10.2p/kWh, so at 13.26kWh of heat that used 3.86kWh of electricity or ~39p

 

Take your favourite combi boiler, at 90% efficiency you would need 14.73kWh of gas at 3.23p, so your combi would cost 47.5p to heat the same volume of water. 
 

So your combi has a lower flow rate (15 litres/min vs 22 litres/min), higher maintenance and service costs, and is over 20% more expensive to run than a heat pump. 
 

Do you have any factual and empirical statements to challenge this ..? Or should we go with hot air and baseless conjecture ..??