Planning Permission on Fence

[Temp]

Many native hedge plants have thorns. If you will have to cut it yourself might be worth carefully selecting the varieties.

[Trw144]

So it rumbles on, I ve just come off the phone to the planning officer for the area (not the enforcement officer). She is saying the fence is unauthorised due to its height and that she (or supposedly the ecologist) does nt think there is sufficient space for a hedge to establish, and that it would grow over the pavement ( I would point out the hedge thickness shown on my plan is 900mm - pretty much the same space as i have allowed). She says I should plant it in staggered rows and would consider approving a new application if I set the fence  back further (not something I really wish to pay for)- I ve said I ve planted many hedges before and they grew perfectly well in terms of coverage and height without being planted in staggered rows. Personally, if I plant them close to the hedge, I think they re is plenty of space for them to grow into.

 

So, where do I go from here as I m not sure they will let this lie. Basically, once that hedge hits 5-6ft then I can do whatever I want behind it under permitted development rights - in the meantime I m in breach of planning. My thoughts are to email them on the basis I want a solution (and need to get plants ordered before the end of the month), with two potential options I can see...

 

Plant 30cm whips and put my site security fencing back up until the hedge has grown sufficiently. This ensures my site remains safe from the risk of unauthorised access whilst we finish the soft landscaping, and also keeps my young children safe from the road. (The planning officer did nt like this and suggested I could nt do this as I have now moved in - I would argue that just because I have moved in, does nt mean my site is finished and that I could take a while to finish my soft landscaping).

 

Leave the current fence in situ and plant circa 1m high, more established plants so that it should be to the required height within a shorter time period.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Trw144

[Mikey_1980]

I used Hedges Direct once for Native Hedging in an old house becuase we wanted to screen an area quickly without a wooden fence.  I think 5 x 1metre troughs of plants around 120cm tall cost us around £350 delivered and were well over 6ft tall by the end of the year after lots of water and fertiliser.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The planning officers views aren't really worth a thing in terms of enforcement, and neither are the views of the ecologist.  If it were me I'd just say that I'm going to  plant the hedge in front of the fence, in accordance with the planning approval, then sit back and see if they take enforcement action.  Frankly I doubt they will have the appetite to do anything, other than a bit of bluff and bluster.  Even if they did decide it was worth trying to take enforcement action over that might well take a year or two, and would involve them in some expenditure, by which time you'd have most probably got a hedge that would pass muster and get the enforcement action knocked on the head.

Edited March 15, 2017 by JSHarris

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The planning officers views aren't really worth a thing in terms of enforcement, and neither are the views of the ecologist.  If it were me I'd just say that I'm going to  plant the hedge in front of the fence, in accordance with the planning approval, then sit back and see if they take enforcement action.  Frankly I doubt they will have the appetite to do anything, other than a bit of bluff and bluster.  Even if they did decide it was worth trying to take enforcement action over that might well take a year or two, and would involve them in some expenditure, by which time you'd have most probably got a hedge that would pass muster and get the enforcement action knocked on the head.

 

+1

 

I don't think there is much more I can add here.

 

You have to decide whether you are going to play and endless game of Planning Poker check and check, or calll their bluff and see their hand.

 

Pfaffing will cost you more than planting a hedge, and the only thing enforcement will likely do is to make you apply for retrospective Planning Permission. That is what nearly always happens when something is not catastrophically unacceptable.

 

The stuff about 90cm (or is it 60cm?) for a hedge being too narrow is baloney. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

Ok I cannot condone this behavior as it would be unprofessional of me however .....

 

Build up the topsoil and mix in some good rotted manure and make the planting bed 150mm ABOVE the level of the pavement - batter it back to stop it falling forward. Top dress with a bucket of pelleted chicken manure and fork it in. 

 

Buy 20 of these 1.2/1.5m bare root plants and plant at 90cm intervals along the back row. 

https://www.hedgesdirect.co.uk/acatalog/bare_root_hedging_range.html#hawthorn

 

Under plant with 90cm bare root whips of hazel and hawthorn with the odd beech mixed in at 30cm intervals. 

 

That should give you a pavement to top height of 160-170cm, and exceeding the recommended spacing for planting of hedging at 600mm. That should discharge your planning condition too as there is a substantial element of that hedgerow that is at the height required.

 

Unless the space between the fence and the pavement is 140cm or more then there is not enough space for a double row anyway so planning are wrong.......

 

hope that helps ...

 

 

 

 

[Trw144]

Ok, and now this off the planning enforcement...

 

Dear Mr Webb,

 

Thank you for your email. I am currently working from home following site visits so unable to call you today but will be back in the office on Friday as usual.

 

I have requested a list of native hedgerow planting for you from Conservation. I await their reply.

In the meantime I have spoken to Charlotte Atkins who has advised me of the conversation you both had recently regarding the unauthorised fence. Further to my email dated 13.03.17  I can advise that the fence can not be deemed permitted in the future as it has been erected prior to the planting of the hedgerow and therefore it is simply unauthorised.

I would be grateful if you could please update me on your intentions with regards to this fence as soon as you are able.

 

Kind regards,

 

Amy

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Trw144

[jack]

5 minutes ago, Trw144 said:

I can advise that the fence can not be deemed permitted in the future as it has been erected prior to the planting of the hedgerow and therefore it is simply unauthorised.

 

Que?  Are they saying that if you took the fence down, planted the hedge, then put it back, you'd be fine? 

 

I can't recall whether you've said, but has your building been signed off?

[Trw144]

No, my building has nt been signed off. I don't know the legal situation of what they are saying.

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Que?  Are they saying that if you took the fence down, planted the hedge, then put it back, you'd be fine? 

 

I can't recall whether you've said, but has your building been signed off?

 

It sounds like that's exactly what they are saying!  They are using the fact that PD doesn't apply until after all the planning conditions have been signed off (or, possibly, after completion) as a loophole.

 

I'd just cease communicating with them for now, as if there's further correspondence they will only feel the need to reply.  How far away are you from completion?  If it's only 6 months or so then I doubt very much if they will take any serious action, as they know full well that you could remove the fence now and replace it under PD the day after the house is signed off.

[Trw144]

@jsharris I moved in in December and I'm pretty much finished - basically some outside landscaping to be done - turf the lawn and gravel the drive. I'm inclined to leave it for now and when it they ask I'll say the fence is providing security to the site whilst I still have diggers etc undertaking the landscaping, and keep my children safe from the road whilst the hedge establishes. I'll tell them I have'nt decided what to do after this time - whether to take the fence down, reduce its height, or apply for planning permission for it. This will at least give time for my hedge to establish.

 

thoughts?

[Calvinmiddle]

I'd do what you are planning to do but say nothing to them, doing that will only remind them about this.

My understanding is that if they plan to take any action they have to let you know, they you can start negotiating with them.

 

If you do as PeterW says those bare root trees should be nice and green by the time anything else happens

[ProDave]

On 15 March 2017 at 16:23, JSHarris said:

 

It sounds like that's exactly what they are saying!  They are using the fact that PD doesn't apply until after all the planning conditions have been signed off (or, possibly, after completion) as a loophole.

 

I'd just cease communicating with them for now, as if there's further correspondence they will only feel the need to reply.  How far away are you from completion?  If it's only 6 months or so then I doubt very much if they will take any serious action, as they know full well that you could remove the fence now and replace it under PD the day after the house is signed off.

That is very similar to the discussion I had about my static caravan and they backed down and removed the clause requiring it's removal on completion of the house.

[Carrerahill]

On 2017-3-9 at 12:15, Trw144 said:

...then the same person who complained that my house had a silver finish and did nt look very nice - its what you and I know as the vapour barrier on a timber frame before its rendered/clad.

 

Bloody brilliant! What a complete fool and time waster who phoned that one in! I hope planning start filing these complaints directly into a bin!

[Trw144]

Well this one eventually panned out last week. After several calls and emails from the planning officer over the last few months, they got to the point they said I needed to put an application in within 7 days. To support my application I said I wanted to know what other similar fences (well not actually similar as mine will be hidden behind a hedge once its established) in my village had planning permission, were under permitted development, or did nt have planning. I sent in 9 examples for them to investigate and said I believed I believe I was being victimised for reasons unknown to me. The next day I had a long email back that effectively said what I d said all along, in that I don’t need planning permission as the fence will eventually be behind a hedge. What a waste of everyone’s time.

[TerryE]

We had a dance with our enforcement officer because our front door style wasn't to plan; they told us to put in an NMA (pointing out that the door wasn't even visible from the road) -- which we did and the planning office turned it down because "any change to the principle elevation is not non-material".  So we have (i) admitted that we'd changed from our original plan and (ii) our door was not to plan.  Game set and match.

 

I suspect that its the 2m that triggered the reaction.  That plus the fence looks nice and permanent.   I'd be tempted to do a variant of what Peter suggested (i) don't put in an application; (ii) build a low bedding wall backfill with soil and plant the hedge.  (iii) leave the posts, but remove the top 40cm of the fence or maybe and replace it with trellis.  If you put in an application then you are effectively admitting that  you are intending it to be a permanent structure.  Stick to your point that you need some form of 2m fence because of the use of the safety issues, and keep to your line that it's just temporary.  The issue will really become one of whether they think it worth the effort to execute an enforcement order for a temporary fence.  If you've already got the hedge in place then its clearly not permanent .  If they execute an enforcement order on removal of a 2m fence, you can immediately respond  with "what 2m fence?"   Don't put in the application, and just keep spinning it out.  Threatening emails are cheap, but enforcement orders are costly to execute and pretty hard to enforce.  Are they really going to take you to court for a fence that won''t even be visible by the time that you go to court?  You could always add some "temporary" Hessian screening or plant some rapid growing clematis or honeysuckle to the trellis once the EO dogs have got bored.