Issues with sliding doors

[Mandana]

Has anyone had an issue with sliding doors to contend with?

 

We have 3, and there are problems with each of them. They were installed last summer and they weren’t right from the day they were installed. 
 

We have gone back to our builders time and time again and they’ve insisted it’s a manufacturing problem. The manufacturers have insisted it’s an installation issue. We’ve had an assessor out and he said the same - installation issue. 
 

Today we heard back from the technical department from the manufacturers after they’ve seen the report and photos with the list of issues. They’ve confirmed it’s poor installation that caused all the problems. We have never had access to this report sadly. 
 

How did you address this if you’ve been through similar?

 

The builders have sent 2 guys out twice and the issues are still not resolved. 
 

Advice would be appreciated before we go in with our size 9s. 
 

Many thanks! 

[jack]

Who supplied the doors to be fit?

Either way, if the manufacturer can point out what's wrong with the installation, surely the onus is back on the builder to either fix or explain why the manufacturer is wrong?

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, Mandana said:

Today we heard back from the technical department from the manufacturers after they’ve seen the report and photos with the list of issues. They’ve confirmed it’s poor installation that caused all the problems. We have never had access to this report sadly. 
 

 

I think you need to get a copy of that report. Write a letter to manufacturer's registered office (which you can look up on Companies House for free)giving them the background and in writing and politely, but firmly, threatening legal proceedings unless they provide you with a copy. The basic points you need to make in your letter are:

• logic dictates that either the manufacturer is responsible or the installer is responsible;
• if they, as the manufacturer, are not responsible then there is nothing for them to hide and there is no good reason for not sharing the report with you;
• in circumstances where they are refusing to give you the report, the logical inference is that the report must implicate them and therefore you can only infer that actually they are liable;
• accordingly, if they don't provide you a copy within 21 days of the date of the letter, you will make an application under civil procedure rule 31.16 for pre-action disclosure of a copy of the report.

This should rattle their feathers a bit and may get you the report. The report won't necessarily be the gospel truth as its author is probably biased, but it is likely to be relevant to your determination of who is at fault.

 

Your only alternative at this stage is to hire a expert in sliding doors and sliding door installation to assess them and write your own report which you can then use to cajole the responsible party into fixing the issue. If you go down that route, be sure the expert complies with Civil Procedure Rule 35 and the Civil Justice Council's guidance on experts to be used in Court proceedings. I'm not suggesting you actually go to Court, but doing these things and threatening the sliding door company with a discrete Court application that just gets them to give you the report may help in making it look like you are willing to take that step, and that might be enough to prod them into action, get you the report and then use that to take matters forwards.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Adsibob

[craig]

Post some pictures and I'll give you my professional advice.

 

What I'd be looking for picture wise/measurement wise, are the following.

• Manufacturer and model of sliding door
• Measurements at 3 locations from the inside threshold to the top/head (underside) on the left, middle and right (i.e. measurements within the frame)
• If lift and slide, when door is closed, measurement of the gap at 3 locations (left, middle, right) and the same measurement when the door is lifted (open)
• Does the door slide freely or does the door move freely for a bit and then become stuck and then move freely again? Does the door move freely when handle at 90 degrees but difficult at 180 degrees (lift and slide model)
• Level on sides (laser ideally)
• Level on threshold (laser ideally)
• Level on head (laser ideally)
• Measurement from corner to corner to check for squareness of frame and sash(s)
• Level if possible to check if the door is straight - being out 3mm/5mm can cause operational difficulties
   

I would say, that 90% of the time it is a deflection issue or something has cause the threshold to rise at a specific spot. No one seems to take into account that as the roof is put on, other items are installed etc and over time. The building will settle, that's why tolerances are important and deflections taken into account. There could also be warping/twisting of the frame at play, which would be a manufacturer issue.

It's not always as straight forward as it being an installation issue, numerous factors can be at play and generally could and should be prevented during the planning/detailing stage by asking the right questions. Which in my view, becomes a supplier (not necessarily manufacturer) issue. Irrespective of who installed the product.

Edited May 7, 2021 by craig

[Adsibob]

Interesting insights @craig. Incidentally, my sliding door survey was done today, but the roof isn’t quite finished yet. The rafters, insulation and steels (to support a large roof light) are up, but the green roof (which is just an extensive one, unlikely to weigh more than 75kg/m2) and the rooflight itself, are not. The opening where we are fitting the sliding door is 2300 high by 4300 wide, 4 panels. There is so much steelwork and the footings were poured about 10 weeks ago that I can’t see deflection being an issue, but I’m not the expert whereas you clearly are!

 

What questions should I be asking the sliding door company that did the survey today to make sure they have taken into account deflection when the roof is finished and the skylight is fitted?

[craig]

27 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

The opening where we are fitting the sliding door is 2300 high by 4300 wide, 4 panels

 

I'd be expecting the steel to deflect in the region roughly of 10mm/15mm but would need to be confirmed by structural engineer. 

 

27 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Incidentally, my sliding door survey was done today

 

Where's the sliding door being installed? Directly under the steel lintel? If yes, what tolerances have been allowed for? Did they ask what the steel deflection was? What is the material being used for the insulation by the install team? A solid PU foam or a compriband only? If they've only allowed 10mm and the steel deflects by 10mm and they use a solid PU foam. The steel pushes the PU foam, which pushes the head of the slider, which then compresses down onto the sash and then it won't open.

 

Here's a prime example, one of my projects but a supply only. We don't always get it right. However, no one could supply the deflection of the lintel, builder didn't follow our instructions and I allowed 20mm tolerance in the head and 10mm threshold (30mm overall) just in case. Still wasn't enough.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by craig

[Makeitstop]

Craig....

 

Can I ask what the solution is / was to resolving the issue in the above job, and was there a satisfactory outcome?

 

 

[craig]

Resolving the weight issue above was down to contractor. However, we advised to remove all the PU foam that was used above and replace with Compriband.
 

Second option was remove the sash and either take 5mm off the top of the sliding sash or take the rollers out of the sash and rebate them in further (5mm) to give the clearance required.

 

A quick fix, is sometimes you have the guides that sit in the sash and in the track. You’ll have them at the top of each vertical section. These are plastic usually and if you remove one side at a time. You can shave them down a touch to give a little extra clearance.

 

The issue was resolved and doors work freely and have done for 10 years.

Edited May 8, 2021 by craig

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, craig said:

Resolving the weight issue above was down to contractor. However, we advised to remove all the PU foam that was used above and replace with Compriband.
 

Second option was remove the sash and either take 5mm off the top of the sliding sash or take the rollers out of the sash and rebate them in further (5mm) to give the clearance required.

 

A quick fix, is sometimes you have the guides that sit in the sash and in the track. You’ll have them at the top of each vertical section. These are plastic usually and if you remove one side at a time. You can shave them down a touch to give a little extra clearance.

 

The issue was resolved and doors work freely and have done for 10 years.

I have had problems with my Internorm sliding doors. I had Thomas Hagen (Internorm tech guy) out and I helped him to acro the frame back up and tighten the fixing screws but it has slowly happened again over the three years that the frame has been up. At the moment I cannot let the handle lift the doors fully up as the opening door catches on the frame so I have to hold it halfway to be able to open the doors which is not ideal plus I have to remember if I slide the door fully open that the handle is in the horizontal position and not vertical and so could put a dent in the aluclad exterior so not good! I tried to have another go with an acro just recently but the screws will not just pull the frame up and I cannot see what the screws are screwing into as the house is finished. With the Internorm frame the fixing holes in the sliding part of the frame are nearer the inside of the frame and when I look at the frame it seems as though it is not level across the width and I may try to remove a 5.4m exterior trim and try some screws on the outer side of the frame to help pull it up square and thus have two rows of screws. We are only talking about 3mm but it is enough to stop the door working properly.  

[Russell griffiths]

My window company insisted that I leave a 30mm void above the sliders, as they are having problems with frames and beams moving, 

i wasn’t happy as I’ve built in icf and couldn’t see any deflection happening, but they insisted. 

Im glad they did really although I’m not expecting any movement. 

I can see this problem occurring more as people build larger openings spanned with steel incorporated into a timber frame. 

Steel goal post always. 

[Makeitstop]

Thanks for the reply Craig.

 

 

[Adsibob]

10 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Steel goal post always. 

So with a steel goal post, is this not an issue at all? We have a steel goal post, but the full weight of the roof (which contains a couple of heavy-ish skylights) won't be going on for a while, and so the sliding door survey was done before the full weight is on. Architect thinks there's unlikely to be any deflection in the steels, but I guess I should check with the SE.

[jack]

22 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

So with a steel goal post, is this not an issue at all? We have a steel goal post, but the full weight of the roof (which contains a couple of heavy-ish skylights) won't be going on for a while, and so the sliding door survey was done before the full weight is on. Architect thinks there's unlikely to be any deflection in the steels, but I guess I should check with the SE.

 

I have exactly the same problem as @Pete above, despite having goal post steels.

 

[craig]

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Architect thinks there's unlikely to be any deflection in the steels, but I guess I should check with the SE.

I’m no structural engineer but it will deflect.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by craig

[Ferdinand]

What an excellent thread.

 

So one of the lessons from this is (as we may feel in our waters) to tend to be slightly conservative in design if possible, and it does not prevent a really central "wow" feature. 

[Ferdinand]

Is there a generic name for this type of ultra-wide sliding patio window idea?

 

What are they called?

 

Ferdinand

[Hilldes]

With our bifold openings the timber frame company (and their SE) worked with the window manufacturer to agree the maximum deflection of the steel goal posts (i.e. sag in the middle of the steel cross bar) - acknowledging that there will be some deflection. Our widest opening is 4m. IIRC the maximum deflection agreed was 10mm. 

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Is there a generic name for this type of ultra-wide sliding patio window idea?

 

What are they called?

An expensive folly and waste of money for which the TV home shows have a lot to answer for..??

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

10 hours ago, Adsibob said:

So with a steel goal post, is this not an issue at all? We have a steel goal post, but the full weight of the roof (which contains a couple of heavy-ish skylights) won't be going on for a while, and so the sliding door survey was done before the full weight is on. Architect thinks there's unlikely to be any deflection in the steels, but I guess I should check with the SE.

Goal posts are only half the answer, everything deflects to a certain amount, it’s leaving the correct clearance below the beam that prevents it restricting door movement. 

 

I cannot understand anybody who would spec a steel to sit to sit on a set of timber supporting studs. 

[Russell griffiths]

13 minutes ago, PeterW said:

An expensive folly and waste of money for which the TV home shows have a lot to answer for..??

 

 

We went through this scenario, we could have had a 9m opening looking out onto a stunning view, but in reality we live in England where it is damp and miserable half the year, so how many times do you open that door fully. 

 

We we ended up with a 4.5m door and a 3m picture window, this is far more practical, reduced the cost of the supporting structure, was simpler to build. 

Win win. 

[jack]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

An expensive folly and waste of money for which the TV home shows have a lot to answer for..??

 

I don't know about folly, but if I ever build another house, I won't bother with sliding doors, and not just because of the problem we've had here.

 

I just don't see the point in having such a massive expanse of moveable glass in one place. Windows work perfectly well (I've no interest in seeing the ground right outside the house) while not getting in the way of furniture placement. I think I'd have preferred a pair of French doors in the middle of the wall, with windows either side.

 

[craig]

31 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I just don't see the point in having such a massive expanse of moveable glass in one place.

When the correct checks and tolerances etc. are done, they are a thing of beauty (this is a 12m clear opening).

 

When they aren’t they can be a pain in the a***

 

[Russell griffiths]

34 minutes ago, craig said:

When the correct checks and tolerances etc. are done, they are a thing of beauty (this is a 12m clear opening).

 

When they aren’t they can be a pain in the a***

 

That’s lovely, but it doesn’t need to all move. 8m fixed with a 4m opening section. 

 

[craig]

6 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

That’s lovely, but it doesn’t need to all move. 8m fixed with a 4m opening section. 

 

It’s 19.5m overall ? 

 

Edit: I should mention, I was against this. It was the client who was insistent but we knew we could do it. It is a custom made slider and won’t be done again.

Edited May 9, 2021 by craig

[jack]

45 minutes ago, craig said:

When the correct checks and tolerances etc. are done, they are a thing of beauty (this is a 12m clear opening).

 

I'm not saying no-one should ever have glass doors. I just think people reflexively choose them as if they're always the right option in all situations, and I disagree with that sentiment.