Pulling the final trigger... to selfbuild or not to selfbuild..

[ToughButterCup]

It took us 35 years to get planning permission. 

By the time we got permission, we'd been through the mincer a few times each and many times jointly. And that had taught us resilience: hardened us off if you like. Lost mates in the forces, been through several of the severest domestic trauma you can think of - and out of the other end.  Alive. Kicking.

 

Because we'd just bloody well got on with it .  Self build - no difference. Its exactly the same.

 

But if you can't take a joke, don't start.

[puntloos]

"Can't take a joke", @ToughButterCupposted on April 1st. Ha.

 

Well, here's an interesting one. Looking at the date for the starting post - March 2021. Well hello from July 2022. 

NOW we have the full work done. Of course I didn't have building regs yet. No soil testing done. I didn't have the full SE and Mechanical design yet. No discharge of conditions (roof tiles.. ) But .. a year+? Wow. Mostly people not moving their ass until prodded MANY times, and I felt I was pretty pushy at times. 

 

And my money became worth what - 25% less?

 

Anyway. I now know all I could reasonably know as an amateur/buyer. Tender is done and has returned. I can still theoretically afford it. The provisionals could cut down the price by maybe 20% (if I go for IKEA throughout, no smart home etc)

It's quite interesting that "finally" I am at a stage where the 'build' route is a bit clearer than the "buy" route, since of course the house we'd buy has not come on the market yet, no idea about its hidden flaws, its EPC rating etc. Not to mention that buying will cost time as well, buying our "plot" (+house) the first time took 6 months from offer accepted to keys. It will certainly be a worse quality house, or a more expensive house. 

 

One important difference I think I'm picking up on is that many people here do 50-80% of project managing themselves. Instead my approach has been pretty much ultra hands-on during the design, but intending to just hand the builder +QSthe plans and going 'call me when you're done" as the default. Certainly I intend to be much more present, and I still have some work around kitchen/bathroom/AV design but the basic structure of the house should (?) be oven ready, but not boris-style.

 

Or am I dreaming? As I noted in my topic elsewhere - I think a lot of the choices have been narrowed down in design to such a degree that outrageously wrong choices are hard-ish to make, assuming the builder is good-faith doing their best. 

 

 

 

 

 

[twice round the block]

Pulling the final trigger... to selfbuild

 

To do a self build you need to know yourself well, your strengths, weaknesses, talents ,resilience  and be honest with yourself, because when you start there is no going back as the commitment is to big and you are very soon in deep, mentally and financially.

 

We were in our mid twenties when it all kicked off, young but ambitious, I had been laboring for plasters and brickies for a few years and was becoming a dab hand at both. Done an extension on the terraced house we owned but wanted a big house in the country.

We were close friends with another couple that were interested in a building project and he had a small amount of building experience as well.

So the search was on, a huge county pile we could split into two, farm with barns,  an old school ? we looked at a few places and in the end found a detached cottage with lots of barns set in two acres. (£72000 how things have changed)

The rest is history, we both sold our current properties and put the money together and a deal was done. 

We got the cottage habitable in a couple days as the local travelling community had been in the and removed all the pipe work and lead off the roof etc.

We were good friends so we all moved in together, after 9 months the relationship started to get tetchy so me and the wife brought a static and moved into that, by doing that it saved the friendship.

We had already decided on how the property would be split up in advance and I was well underway doing my barn conversion, some of which I had to demolish as I had too many joined together ( crime of the century now). 

Our friends were converting some of the other barns but were getting low on money so they sold the cottage and used the funds from that to carry on.

After lots of ups and downs we got the whole place done , lived in it in its completed format for a year and then got divorced, and so did our friends, they got there side all completed and ending up divorced as well.

So there you go you may think it will strengthen your relationship going through all the work 7 days a week for an end goal, but it can destroy it.

 

Think before you leap and work out a budget and add 30%.

Buy toys straight away, diesel mixer, dumper and JCB, you need them from day one

Edited July 30, 2022 by twice round the block

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, twice round the block said:

Pulling the final trigger... to selfbuild

 

To do a self build you need to know yourself well, your strengths, weaknesses, talents ,resilience  and be honest with yourself, because when you start there is no going back as the commitment is to big and you are very soon in deep, mentally and financially.

 

We were in our mid twenties when it all kicked off, young but ambitious, I had been laboring for plasters and brickies for a few years and was becoming a dab hand at both. Done an extension on the terraced house we owned but wanted a big house in the country.

We were close friends with another couple that were interested in a building project and he had a small amount of building experience as well.

So the search was on, a huge county pile we could split into two, farm with barns,  an old school ? we looked at a few places and in the end found a detached cottage with lots of barns set in two acres. (£72000 how things have changed)

The rest is history, we both sold our current properties and put the money together and a deal was done. 

We got the cottage habitable in a couple days as the local travelling community had been in the and removed all the pipe work and lead off the roof etc.

We were good friends so we all moved in together, after 9 months the relationship started to get tetchy so me and the wife brought a static and moved into that, by doing that it saved the friendship.

We had already decided on how the property would be split up in advance and I was well underway doing my barn conversion, some of which I had to demolish as I had too many joined together ( crime of the century now). 

Our friends were converting some of the other barns but were getting low on money so they sold the cottage and used the funds from that to carry on.

After lots of ups and downs we got the whole place done , lived in it in its completed format for a year and then got divorced, and so did our friends, they got there side all completed and ending up divorced as well.

So there you go you may think it will strengthen your relationship going through all the work 7 days a week for an end goal, but it can destroy it.

 

Think before you leap and work out a budget and add 30%.

Buy toys straight away, diesel mixer, dumper and JCB, you need them from day one

 

Very very different starting point though 😃 - congrats on your path but mine is post-midlife-crisis (at least, I probably am 50+% through with my life) and therefore decent career and bank status etc. Need people to do the work for me and I'll... "supervise" somewhat.

 

Also the 30% seems very realistic if you are going to do it all yourself and you have to deal with market quirks and bad luck. My method is giving the builder a pre-agreed, and inflated amount of monies and they have to figure out all the rest. 

[Gus Potter]

On 31/03/2021 at 16:11, puntloos said:

What were your worries and did they happen or not?

What were your reasons to think that building was better than just buying 'on rightmove'?

How did you 'insure' bad things would not happen, e.g.;

Great posts from everyone also.

 

Just pondering what everyone has written about their experiences, how different they are and what you need to do to get to the completed build.

 

One theory behind this could be taken from marketing theory.. called the FUD factor, maybe not that acceptable in this day and age but hopefully the mods will take my historic ref in the right context. See Motorola sales training manual.

 

FUD = Fear, uncertainty and doubt. The fear comes for example when you are just about to sign with the Lawyer to obtain usually the plot.. big money commited. You know that to back out will / could possibly bankrupt you or cause big trouble.

 

Once you secure the plot you start to become uncertain about your decision making process. Have I done the right thing?  Lastly you start to doubt you own ability to deliver.

 

Now there are a lot of seasoned self builders on BH, some just starting out on their first journey. Some of the seasoned may claim not to suffer from this but.. answers on a post card..

 

Reasons for self building.. well there are many. My first self build was driven by the desire to own a house that we could not otherwise afford off the shelf.. then we tweaked it to make it an "Architecturally designed house" that made it a bit more special.

 

To insure / mitigate the risk that bad things will not happen you need to grasp the nettle and realise that there is no free lunch. You need to research, again and again. You can further mitigate risk by seeking out professional advice Architectural / SE / Contractor advice for example. Just be honest with yourself.. be willing to pay 200 --500 quid up front say.. it will pay dividends. You can spend half a day / two half days with someone who knows what they are doing and chew the fat.. then go back to work. To get the same knowledge and pointers / tips could take you weeks / months to learn. Play to your stengths. There are some that think they know it all but they are set up to either fail or not make the best of what they have.. which is.. a glass half full...

 

The older I get the more I realise how much I still have to learn and this is part of my day job. In that context you maybe have to recognise that by the time you learn it all the ship may have sailed.

 

If you try your very best, keep a sense of humour and so on often this will often be enough to get you over the line. Yes there is still a latent risk but there is agueably just as much risk in buying an off the shelf house.

 

Why.. when you can by a developer house with the guarentees?  I have a pal who has a pal who works for a major developer. They get a heads up for example on the houses that will be air tested! I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Gus Potter

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

Great posts from everyone also.

 

Just pondering what everyone has written about their experiences, how different they are and what you need to do to get to the completed build.

 

One theory behind this could be taken from marketing theory.. called the FUD factor, maybe not that acceptable in this day and age but hopefully the mods will take my historic ref in the right context. See Motorola sales training manual.

 

FUD = Fear, uncertainty and doubt. The fear comes for example when you are just about to sign with the Lawyer to obtain usually the plot.. big money commited. You know that to back out will / could possibly bankrupt you or cause big trouble.

 

Once you secure the plot you start to become uncertain about your decision making process. Have I done the right thing?  Lastly you start to doubt you own ability to deliver.

 

Now there are a lot of seasoned self builders on BH, some just starting out on their first journey. Some of the seasoned may claim not to suffer from this but.. answers on a post card..

 

Reasons for self building.. well there are many. My first self build was driven by the desire to own a house that we could not otherwise afford off the shelf.. then we tweaked it to make it an "Architecturally designed house" that made it a bit more special.

 

To insure / mitigate the risk that bad things will not happen you need to grasp the nettle and realise that there is no free lunch. You need to research, again and again. You can further mitigate risk by seeking out professional advice Architectural / SE / Contractor advice for example. Just be honest with yourself.. be willing to pay 200 --500 quid up front say.. it will pay dividends. You can spend half a day / two half days with someone who knows what they are doing and chew the fat.. then go back to work. To get the same knowledge and pointers / tips could take you weeks / months to learn. Play to your stengths. There are some that think they know it all but they are set up to either fail or not make the best of what they have.. which is.. a glass half full...

 

The older I get the more I realise how much I still have to learn and this is part of my day job. In that context you maybe have to recognise that by the time you learn it all the ship may have sailed.

 

If you try your very best, keep a sense of humour and so on often this will often be enough to get you over the line. Yes there is still a latent risk but there is agueably just as much risk in buying an off the shelf house.

 

Why.. when you can by a developer house with the guarentees?  I have a pal who has a pal who works for a major developer. They get a heads up for example on the houses that will be air tested! I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion.

 

Words of wisdom, for sure. I guess nothing in life is certain, but given how the building process is set up, the likelihood of ending up with a hole in the ground and no money is pretty darn low. As long as you don't do dumb things such as ignoring advice from your architect/builder without good reasons. 

 

And absolutely, any random house could have plenty of downsides that add up. 

 

 

 

[Adsibob]

I would definitely go for it, because with good research and planning you will end up with a much better home than anything you could buy on right move.  But I think you need to also prepare yourself for the fact that not everything will be plain sailing. There are going to be small hiccups and the occasional much bigger c*€k ups and you will stress about it. 
A lot will be outside of your control, eg supply chain crisis.

I would make sure you know exactly what floor finishes, wall finishes and electrical and plumbing layout is and then make sure your construction drawings are very detailed so that they can accommodate all that. Worth spending money on an architectural technician to dream the construction drawings once you have all the design finalised.

In terms of over heating, worth reading up on decrement delay, solar gain, shading and ventilation. Do install MVHR but don’t rely on it to cool your house as it won’t. 

[MikeSharp01]

18 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Do install MVHR but don’t rely on it to cool your house as it won’t. 

No it won't, but in conjunction with other things it can help with cooling.

[MikeSharp01]

6 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

be willing to pay 200 --500 quid up front say.

Probably more if you go the full architect route but if you have vision and are ready for hard, often relentless, work you will make it to the end. You will have A. The satisfaction of having done it. B. Much better equipped in all kinds of situations you will find yourself in the future - because you understand the challenges of constructing a home, you have grown in confidence with a wide range of skills and, C. There will be this artefact on the street that will be testament to your work for generations yet to come who will, if you build it to be light on the planet, thank you for it.

[MikeSharp01]

11 hours ago, twice round the block said:

After lots of ups and downs we got the whole place done , lived in it in its completed format for a year and then got divorced, and so did our friends, they got there side all completed and ending up divorced as well.

It is a risk, we haven't yet, probably won't but it does get tetchy - just yesterday we verged on shouting at each other about the shape of a roof light reveal. I wholly missed the fact that although she has been in the house many, many times and looked at the roof light she didn't clock how the reveal would have to be done because of the way it was positioned - it just cannot flair in all directions because it is set up between two 300mm deep beams. Same thing a few minutes later when she realised how big the flat portion of the vaulted ceilings would be. The structure in which it must fit has been there for a year or more but she does not see the implications of that and I just didn't spot she didn't get it even though we chose to flat it out much earlier in the build to give us some service space at the top of the house. This naturally works both ways so don't think I know exactly what is going on all the time - I get caught out too. So although we have worked hard on communication over the build we still have our moments. "What you want a light there? - I wish you had told me that 3 years ago and we could have built a different house. SO COMMUNICATE, COMMUNICATE, COMMUNICATE....  

Edited July 31, 2022 by MikeSharp01
Its a two way thing.

[JohnMo]

Things I made sure of before I started the build.  Takes from the below are

1. plan on paper,

2. Alway go for the simplest way - keep it simple. Don't build technology into a building that may not be supported in a year's time.

3. do not change design unless there is a really good reason. 

 

Your mental attitude needs to be looking forward, how do I get from A to B and C and so on, once A is done it's done move on.

 

Don't ask for too many opinions, as you will get 101 opposing views, that all valid in their own way.

 

The order I did things

Made sure layouts where right, we went to the beach and draw out the house in the sand to make it flowed right, scrubbed bits out, added bits, did this a couple of times.  Sorted where we wanted light switches etc.

 

Did as much upfront as possible to limit any decision making or more importantly changes during the build, tried to keep things as simple as possible, no clever or complex stuff built in to the fabric of the building. No paid for learning curves at my expense. Still a 1001 things you are asked during the build, but that's the nature of building a one off.

 

Discussed with contractor how they were going to do the build process.  Realised pretty soon, they didn't want us on site during the build and we would be invited a key stages only.  So knocked that idea on it his head and went self managed, mostly self build.

 

Changed build method to ICF, so it was easier for me to do the walls.  Had plans redrawn and new Warrant (Scotland). This caused a 2 month delay.

 

Explored myself internally what I could and couldn't do on the build, and what would be given to others to do.

 

In the end we had we had the following changes to initial design, after building work started 

 

CAT5 cables installed in all rooms - an add on to electrical scope. Made sense while electrical work was being done.

 

Changed from main water to private borehole, due to the stupid high price Scottish water wanted.

 

Posi joist roof rafters instead of cut roof. Joiner suggestions to save time on site.  Worked really well.

 

Changed the roof insulation to spray foam. 2 day job instead lots of days. This made sense with the posi rafters as all gaps are filled.

 

Reduced the size of a hall cupboard, to make hall feel more generous.  That was one my scopes of work, so saved time and materials.

 

Upgraded windows from double to triple glazed.  Expensive upgrade.

[twice round the block]

JohnMo.

Draw it out on the beach in the sand is a great idea, if you don't have a disused road or industrial space you can use.

As you said keep it simple.

The more complex your design, the more it compounds the difficulties in trying to make it work.

[MikeSharp01]

45 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

do not change design unless there is a really good reason. 

+1 to that.

[Kelvin]

Good thread insights and suggestions. 
 

I am a worrier. Always have been. I also tend to overthink everything and look at problems from every angle considering every possible outcome. At it’s worst it can create a paralysis of indecision. Conversely I am very good in a crisis and used to run towards them at work. The difference between the two situations is that the overthinking starts when I have too much time to worry about a problem. In a crisis time isn’t on your side so you have to be more decisive when the information is less complete. Therefore, I’m not too worried about things going wrong and problem solving because I know I have the skills and resilience to deal with them. But I am still a deep worrier and worry about a lot of small seemingly inconsequential small things. The only thing my other half worries about is my level of worrying 😂 
 

The thing I worry about the most, like a lot of us, is the money. We have a good budget with a healthy contingency so I am confident we can do it. But everything is of course very uncertain with costs continuing to rise so we won’t do this at any cost. The consequence is we are already making big cost decisions on things I was sure I wanted two years ago such as home automation and a fully insulated timber built garage/workshop/music room. 
 

The stress on your relationship is another good point that we have discussed at length. So far we’ve been able to make the big decisions without too many disagreements but we have had to remind ourselves a couple of times that this is just a house we are building and it’s just the next 18 months. It’ll become our home for the next 20 years of plus afterwards. 

[Kelvin]

Interesting comment on cost triple vs double. In our case there’s 5% difference. 

[PeterW]

Triple is standard spec on things we do now, paid for itself when it was sunny and 38°C outside and you could stand in front of the windows and not get fried !!!

 

Plan everything… draw it, rip it up, draw it out on the beach or a bit grass area (or the plot if possible and make batten frames for the windows..) and decide where everything is and then don’t move anything. It’s hard to do that but means you don’t get nasty surprise bills for amendments. 

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

Interesting comment on cost triple vs double. In our case there’s 5% difference. 

Our differences was around £15k.  We originally planned uPVC double, then we started looking and didn't like what we saw.  So went wooden framed triple glazed made a couple of miles from the house.

[puntloos]

One thing I did was teach myself an architecting program. I can jump into the house and move the couch 5cm to the left and then jump into VR to see what happens. I have literally 80 major revisions of the house on file now. (started a new file version every time I changed a big amount of things). Would be interesting to create a movie/time progression of all these designs.

 

It's safe to say I know the house fairly well, but really only at a superficial level, I couldn't tell you the build-up of the walls (I was involved, but don't remember).  

 

@Adsibob- supply chain - yeah I'm debating arranging storage and start buying stuff right now for the provisionals. I'm not sure how the builder will handle e.g. "concrete".

@Adsibob- what do you mean arch technician? my design was a full architect team, so that's done? I am debating doing a professional 3D render of my house (into a gaming engine so you can truly feel reality).

@MikeSharp01- You're right, I think my marriage is pretty good at communication on 'general issues' but building a house, and seeing it shape up in unexpected ways is quite another. 

@JohnMo- Liked the beach story, although ha as said I have literally 82 versions of my house drawn and shown in 3D to the wife, so same idea. Interesting point about not being allowed onsite, i wonder if I should insist, I'm really not in a place to do stuff myself anyway, but I don't like mystery  - also I think people underestimate how amazing a large hall is, sounds like a good call.

@Kelvin- seems like we're somewhat similar, of course my partner is a very different person. I'm pretty optimistic that I can handle most situations (hey, it'll cost time, but not too much money since my builder is 'turnkey' - in most things it's their problem if concrete price doubles etc. But yeah, finances in general, I've been trying to get a super clear view of any "extra" costs beyond the quoted, not to mention that my money is partially in the stock market so I am worrying about how much I should put money in the proverbial mattress so I'm sure I have the number asked, vs doing the 'right investment strategy' which is 95% likely to end me up with more but 5% I can't afford the house.. etc..

 

 

[Kelvin]

4 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Our differences was around £15k.  We originally planned uPVC double, then we started looking and didn't like what we saw.  So went wooden framed triple glazed made a couple of miles from the house.

Ah right. We are alu clad timber. 

[Adsibob]

4 hours ago, puntloos said:

what do you mean arch technician? my design was a full architect team, so that's done?

I meant that it is good to have almost EVERYTHING drawn in considerable detail, with build ups for walls, floor structure and roof structure. Similar for how you will tackle anything that’sa bit non-standard, such as frameless doors if you have any, or level threshold with outside. To get an actual architect to draw up such detail and think about, eg u values, decrement delay is ££££ whereas an architectural technician is cheaper and probably more experienced in this type of “grunt work”. ie after the architect has finished the overall design, the architectural technician implements it as construction drawings.

[Pocster]

Do it and be damned 

Research as you go , learn as you go .

Takes for ever . But what’s the point of life without any challenges ?? 🙄😁

Edited July 31, 2022 by pocster

[Roundtuit]

As above.... you'll never achieve 'perfect information', but if you do, the rest of the world will f**k it up for you before you get it built.  Take your best guess, and start building something ffs!

 

[Jilly]

Will you regret not doing it? 

 

 

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, Jilly said:

Will you regret not doing it? 

 

 

Interesting question, because it depends on who 'you' is. Me, puntloos- yes. Us, the puntfamily - "maybe". 

7 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I meant that it is good to have almost EVERYTHING drawn in considerable detail, with build ups for walls, floor structure and roof structure. Similar for how you will tackle anything that’sa bit non-standard, such as frameless doors if you have any, or level threshold with outside. To get an actual architect to draw up such detail and think about, eg u values, decrement delay is ££££ whereas an architectural technician is cheaper and probably more experienced in this type of “grunt work”. ie after the architect has finished the overall design, the architectural technician implements it as construction drawings.

Interesting idea. If you go to my showcase site - https://focusky.com/uqqn/baxy - top right section, is all the 'pro' drawings I currently have. Is that a good level of detail? Or would you do more? 

And how do I find an arch technician? 😃

[Adsibob]

10 hours ago, puntloos said:

If you go to my showcase site - https://focusky.com/uqqn/baxy - top right section, is all the 'pro' drawings I currently have. Is that a good level of detail? Or would you do more? 

There's a good amount of detail here, but you could add more. For example, you specify the thickness of PIR in the buildups, but I'm not sure all PIR is equal. Aren't there different types?
Similarly, in one part you state "100mm of sound insulation", but that is area where there are all sorts of densities and materials available. You should choose something specific and specify it.

 

Your skylights don't show any insulation detail. Velux for example supply insulation collars for their skylights separately. Similarly, flashing kits don't appear to have been specified. These are all things I assumed would be included as part of my tender and then discovered they weren't. Added cost and the surprise is never welcome.

A couple of other amendments you should consider:

• If the loft is intended to be usable space, rather than just storage, I would seriously consider investing in:
  • wood fibre insulation. You need quite a lot of thickness to make it worthwhile, at least 160mm but preferably more, and of course you'll need to run calcs to make sure your build up complies with regs, which bizarrely only care about insulation in winter, not summer. This will increase the decrement delay making it cooler by delaying the heat transfer time to a time when it is cooler outside so that you can open the windows and purge heat quickly; and
  • external blinds for your two skylights.
• For sound proofing, where you've specified 15mm of soundbloc plasterboard. It's better to double up on this and stagger the joints.
• Have you specified the pipe thickness and type for the UFH? I couldn't see that.