Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Our neighbour who is trying anything to stop our new build has claimed that there is two metres of our garden that is his. There has been a fence and hedge for 19/20 years and the land to our side has been mowed and looked after purely by ourselves during this time. It is registered land. The neighbour has had a survey carried out by Survey Hub which shows a line starting at 2.35m wide narrowing to 2.02m wide over the length of the boundary. How accurate is this survey as I assume they take it off the land registry documents which are no where near as detailed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Start proceedings for adverse possession if you have proof it has been fenced and used exclusively for 19/20 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 https://www.myerson.co.uk/news-insights-and-events/a-guide-to-adverse-possession Go talk to a competent solicitor, one who has experience in these type of matters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeGrahamT21 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 To answer question about accuracy, they are accurate to within 1metre, so thats 1metre either way, or 2metre overall, I had a similar issue with my neighbour and he backed down once he had that fact 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, ProDave said: Start proceedings for adverse possession if you have proof it has been fenced and used exclusively for 19/20 years. Yes looked into this but it is not that easy being registered land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Happy Valley said: Yes looked into this but it is not that easy being registered land. By "registered land" do you mean land shown to be included within the border of titled land known to the Land Registry? If so I do not think this undermines your case for claiming "adverse possession". In these situations established (> 12 years) physical boundaries trump lines on Land Registry documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said: By "registered land" do you mean land shown to be included within the border of titled land known to the Land Registry? If so I do not think this undermines your case for claiming "adverse possession". In these situations established (> 12 years) physical boundaries trump lines on Land Registry documents. Yes - both sides of the boundary have titled land that is registered to the neighbours and ourselves. ie there is no unregistered land. Thanks for your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 The forum at https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/ is a good resource for these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Happy Valley said: The neighbour has had a survey carried out by Survey Hub which shows a line starting at 2.35m wide narrowing to 2.02m wide over the length of the boundary. How accurate is this survey as I assume they take it off the land registry documents which are no where near as detailed? Adverse possession is for where land that is owned by one party has come into the potential possession of another party by way of long-term occupation. Your case sounds more like there's a question over where the boundary lies, exactly. The land registry documents are not definitive. If there's been a fence in place for 20-odd years without anyone noticing, then unless the land registry makes it clear that the fence is in the wrong place, there's a decent argument that the boundary is in the right place, and the land is yours (not theirs, and you having a right to claim by way of adverse possession). That said, there are traps for the unwary here. Do not under any circumstances discuss this issue with your neighbour before talking to a suitably experienced solicitor. One trick your neighbour might try is to offer to sell it to you at a low price. You accept, then he/she withdraws, but by that time you've effectively confirmed that you believe he owns the land. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Happy Valley said: The neighbour has had a survey carried out by Survey Hub Trouble is he is now emotionally and financially committed to a course of action. I have been told a land survey costs £400 + VAT for a simple residential plot assessment. Can anyone else confirm if this is a typical fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Happy Valley said: a survey carried out by Survey Hub which shows a line starting at 2.35m wide narrowing to 2.02m wide over the length of the boundary. Do you mean the Land Registry plan depicts a fat boundary line which which is around 2m wide or does the Survey Hub plan show your garden encroaches between 2.35 to 2.02 beyond their claim of the boundary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 It would be sensible if you could take photos of the boundary, including any reference points if possible, so that if they install a fence in future you can ensure it is placed on their land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 I assume the Survey Hub plans is based on Ordnance Survey mapping. The OS site plan can be a good starting point when tackling for these issues. If you post up the Survey Hub plan (anonymised) it may give a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Just now, Mr Punter said: I assume the Survey Hub plans is based on Ordnance Survey mapping. The OS site plan can be a good starting point when tackling for these issues. If you post up the Survey Hub plan (anonymised) it may give a better idea. Perhaps they offer a cheaper remote service where they overlay digitized LR plans with Google map satellite surveys to produce their report. Their web site gives the impression they are a traditional full service land surveying outfit, such a service will require on the ground measuring and hi-tech mapping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 (edited) Do you have a copy of your deeds, if not get one and get a copy of your neighbour's too. Certainly up here, they often have a precise description of the position of boundaries versus a fixed point. I believe our land is described as being an exact number of metres wide from an exact point on the ground. This would trump fat lines on a map where there is some argument. 2 hours ago, Happy Valley said: The neighbour has had a survey carried out by Survey Hub which shows a line starting at 2.35m wide narrowing to 2.02m wide over the length of the boundary. Is this 2.35/2.02M the width of the line shown on the map. I would guess that at best he could claim half of that and that precedent might suggest that your established fence trumps the uncertainty of a wide line. There is some good advice here, map boundaries are not considered accurate and you could apply to have the boundary "determined". I suspect a 20 year fence would have you winning that case, but better to ask a lawyer who knows a lot more about it than me. Indeed everything I read suggests that the line on the map is considered of little use in establishing exact boundaries. https://www.gov.uk/your-property-boundaries Edited March 1, 2021 by AliG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 With our plot the local council tried to tell us that part of our garden was agricultural (along with the field next to it) so I told the council I could get affidavits signed by family members that the area in question had been used as garden for at least 20 years. The council backed off (slightly different from yours but you could do the same to complete adverse possession). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Happy Valley said: There has been a fence and hedge for 19/20 years and the land to our side has been mowed and looked after purely by ourselves during this time. adverse possession (IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 The survey was done physically at the location and not remotely. The information also states: "The Title Plan shows multiple discrepancies with the boundary" "These measurements are not definitive, as the Boundary line has been traced from the Title Plan. These plans are only produced as a guidance to general position and fitting to match a topographic survey will always introduce scaling errors" Boundary issue.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 It's ridiculous to give a resolution of 1cm (e.g., 2.02m) in the circumstances. It's hard to say more without a full history of both plots. Do you know why the fence/hedge was placed there? Did it replace another in the same place? On the face of it, either the title map isn't right, or it's right and you have a claim to adverse possession (assuming you can show the fence has been there for 12+ years or whatever the adverse possession period is). Either way, all I see is costs for both parties unless your neighbour sees sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 1 minute ago, jack said: It's hard to say more without a full history of both plots. Do you know why the fence/hedge was placed there? Did it replace another in the same place? It was placed there new in 2000/1 when the previous owner of our house built a new house behind and split the plot. There was no boundary prior to that - just an open field/garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsilonGreedy Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, Happy Valley said: It was placed there new in 2000/1 when the previous owner of our house built a new house behind and split the plot. There was no boundary prior to that - just an open field/garden. What is the earliest date the neighbour raised a dispute over the position of the boundary hedge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 They haven't officially raised a dispute but added the survey to a planning objection for our new build. So it is so far purely a statement to the planners and not an official dispute raised directly to us. We do know that a dispute is coming and I want to be prepared when it does. In the meantime we are not discussing it with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 So the fence was put in place by the person who owned both plots at the time it was erected? Interesting. I wonder what the law would have to say about that. In some ways, it seems to strengthen your position, since presumably the plot owner had no particular interest in putting the fence in the wrong place. Indeed, I wonder whether the title/boundary was recorded before or after the fence was erected? The ideal would be the latter, because then it just appears to be a simple error in recording an existing boundary defined by the features of the fence and hedge. I'm not a lawyer though - you really will need to speak to one, unfortunately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 20 minutes ago, Happy Valley said: They haven't officially raised a dispute but added the survey to a planning objection for our new build. So it is so far purely a statement to the planners and not an official dispute raised directly to us. We do know that a dispute is coming and I want to be prepared when it does. In the meantime we are not discussing it with them. So counter the objection to the PP with the fact that you have had exclusive uncontested use of the land for 19 years and that was the agreed boundary when you purchased the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Valley Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 1 minute ago, ProDave said: So counter the objection to the PP with the fact that you have had exclusive uncontested use of the land for 19 years and that was the agreed boundary when you purchased the plot. We have full planning. It is odd as they have objected to 2 removal of conditions that are not related to boundary but added this in as part of their objection. Clutching at straws or a clever first move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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