joe90 Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I have just been pointed at the fairly new " Graf, water treatment plants " " one2clean" and as this is something I will need a decision on this coming spring I was wondering if anyone else has considered one, had one or just has any views on its merits or not. https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/product/domestic-sewage-treatment-plant-5-person-3750l-graf-one2clean.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Out of interest, what made you chose that one? It seems to be unique in that it doesn't run the air blower all the time. Yet I can't see any figures on average power consumption. I don't have experience of one in use, but as it happens, two of the new houses near me have installed that one, but neither is in use yet. One has put the controls in his garage which is close to the plant, the other has the little outside kiosk thing for the controls Have you compared the output cleanliness with the other "best in class" plants like the Biopure, Conder and vortex, which were the three best I found when I was looking (I chose the Conder, several on here have installed a Biopure and I think at least one a Vortex) The price seems comparable to the others. When I bought mine I got quotes from the local builders merchants, and TP were cheaper than all the on line shops so they got the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 Dave, I have not chosen that one, it's just that it's been suggested I consider it along with those you already list. We all know that real life testing is better than any theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I've been doing some digging around about air blowers and oxygenation levels needed to maintain an aerobic environment in these plants. It seems that pretty much any blower-based system can be run with the blower cycled on and off, to reduce the power consumption and increase the pump diaphragm life. The key is to make sure that the sludge settling time is always a lot longer than the pump off time, as that makes sure the aeration holes don't get blocked by settling sludge (the problem Peter S reported some time ago). I've prototyped, but have yet to install, a combined treatment plant alarm and pump timer, that uses a solid state relay to turn the pump off for 15 minutes every 30 minutes (so 30 minutes on, 15 minutes off, with it defaulting to being on for 30 minutes immediately after a power cut). Combined with the lower power JDK-60 pump, that will reduce the energy used by the treatment plant by around 50% or more over the older pump, and should bring the running cost down to around under £35/year (233 kWh/year energy consumption). 15 minutes is too short a time for the sludge to settle, and 30 minutes if more than enough to ensure about 50% more aeration than needed at full capacity. I've a strong feeling that manufacturers have just picked a pump on the basis of price, availability and the pressure needed for the depth of their tank, rather than the actual aeration capacity needed. One consequence is that I think a fair few of these plants are over-aerated, as that's always going to be the safe option, and few customers are going to be that worried about the thing costing another £30 or £40 a year to run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 Just had another look at the Graff site and it appears the pump timings are programmable which appear to be a good thing so I can follow Jeremy's advise on what's best. As it's German am I just optimistic that it will be well made with a good pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, joe90 said: [...] As it's German am I just optimistic that it will be well made with a good pump? No way of telling Joe. Graf are well-known in the chemical sector. From memory it's a family company: we dealt with them a bit ( a very little bit) when I worked in Berlin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 Ian, I drive a Merc, best car I have ever owned, say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 The pump is Japanese, a HiBlow, made by Techno Takatsuki. The majority of these pumps seem to be Japanese, as they were almost all designed for aerating Koi ponds. I don't think I've seen one that isn't a pond pump, re-purposed for use as a treatment plant pump. Not sure whether the HiBlow is any better or worse than the market leader in these things, Secoh, another Japanese pump manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 @joe90, because I'm German(ish) and have worked there, I can honestly say I worry about the charming faith most UK residents have about German products. Not all are well designed. And thats the key consideration in this case. A treatment plant must be ultra reliable. An as @JSHarris points out, the key parts are not German. If they were, the price would likely be much higher. Be more critical of German stuff. It's OK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 2 hours ago, recoveringacademic said: Be more critical of German stuff. It's OK. Mercedes, for example, has long had pretty poor satisfaction and quality ratings among owners. I don't know whether that's because they're actually poor, or owners expect more because it's Mercedes (or perhaps they expect more because they're "Mercedes drivers" ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Any more thoughts on the Graf seawge treatment plant @joe90 - it might just be what I'm after, still reading installation manual though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Slightly off track but pretty sure during WW2, Japanese military scientists invented some very clever man portable filtration systems to ensure potable water from any dubious source. So they must know a thing or too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 10 hours ago, readiescards said: Any more thoughts on the Graf seawge treatment plant @joe90 - it might just be what I'm after, still reading installation manual though. I am away on site sorting first fix plumbing with no broadband but will investigate when I get home at the weekend. I would appreciate any comments regarding this plant versus that plant etcetc so I can make an informed choice along with others. Yes the Japanese appear to have a market in the pump market so no wonder people use their kit. i think it said on the Graf site that granular backfill was needed which saves concrete/cost but our water table is so high I worry about doing that ( ground anchors.?) keep your comments coming guys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 7 hours ago, joe90 said: i think it said on the Graf site that granular backfill was needed which saves concrete/cost but our water table is so high I worry about doing that ( ground anchors.?) keep your comments coming guys Our water table can be very high but we used a treatment plant that only needed type 1 backfill and used ground anchors. It's been in over six years with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Our Conder, is like many of the air pump plants, a conical shape. One of the reasons I chose this one was the retaining "ring" near the base. Once that is encased in concrete that's it solidly anchored into the ground. Our present septic tank was installed by a contractor and I didn't know better then, and it's just encased in pea gravel. I only ever get that emptied in the summer after a long dry spell, I would never empty it in winter, I have seen one "float out of the ground" doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Like Dave, our conical BioPure is set in concrete at the base, which encapsulates moulded-in lugs that act as anchors. The manufacturer offer a ground anchor kit, made up of chains and galvanised angle, but I much preferred the idea of it being held down by their alternative recommended method, the concrete ring around the base. The bottom 1/3rd of our tank is below the water table all the time, and we had to pump the water out of the hole before we put the tank and concrete in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 @joe90 We decided on the Graff unit in the end. This one: Link. Its going in this week and will connect to the existing outbuilding and flat so will be 'live' pretty much straight away. Well at least it will be when I fathom how I'm going to get temporary power to it! A few of points of interest: If you download the manual you'll be fooled into thinking it needs assembling. That's not the case in the U.K. they are delivered fully assembled. The manual also states that the air hoses are not supplied. Again wrong. In the U.K. they come with 20m of hose. There is as yet no installation guide for the one2clean units. It apparently hasn't been translated into English yet!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Barney12 said: @joe90 We decided on the Graff unit in the end. This one: Link. Its going in this week and will connect to the existing outbuilding and flat so will be 'live' pretty much straight away. Well at least it will be when I fathom how I'm going to get temporary power to it! The Graff units mount the pump remote from the tank, so you just need to find somewhere to put it, e.g a shed, put a plug on the flex and plug it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, ProDave said: The Graff units mount the pump remote from the tank, so you just need to find somewhere to put it, e.g a shed, put a plug on the flex and plug it in. That's my problem. Nearest building is a good 30-40 meters away. Its eventually going to be housed in a small wooden 'plant room' which is also going to house a small CU for the bottom garden electrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 underneath an upturned plastic dustbin then just to get it working for now. Graff do a waterproof kiosk to house the blower, I have one of those coming up soon to wire. https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/product/graf-one2clean-external-cabinet-upgrade.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 8 hours ago, ProDave said: underneath an upturned plastic dustbin then just to get it working for now. Graff do a waterproof kiosk to house the blower, I have one of those coming up soon to wire. https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/product/graf-one2clean-external-cabinet-upgrade.html Good idea. I couldn't bring myself to buy the kiosk when I know I can make one for less which will blend better into the garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted April 25, 2017 Author Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) How noisy is the pump. I could mount it in our cloakroom that doubles as a plant room ( cupboard) Barney12 let us know how you get on with the instal and how you bed it etc, decision time for ours is getting closer. Edited April 25, 2017 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 I'm relocating our pump to a small stone box, some distance from the treatment plant, but easier to get at as it's at the side of the drive. The pumps aren't noisy, but they do emit a low frequency hum that carries a fair distance. I'm not sure I'd want it in the house, to be honest, as I'm sure the hum would get on your nerves after a while, even though it is pretty quiet. It's the way low frequency sound like this travels, and is hard to attenuate, that would concern me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 3 hours ago, joe90 said: How noisy is the pump. I could mount it in our cloakroom that doubles as a plant room ( cupboard) Barney12 let us know how you get on with the instal and how you bed it etc, decision time for ours is getting closer. Graff specification is 150mm firm base (we're going to do a weak mix of concrete on our super hard ground) and then back filled with pipe bedding/granular fill 500mm out from the tank. Ill take some photo's 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted April 25, 2017 Author Share Posted April 25, 2017 2 hours ago, JSHarris said: I'm relocating our pump to a small stone box, some distance from the treatment plant, but easier to get at as it's at the side of the drive. The pumps aren't noisy, but they do emit a low frequency hum that carries a fair distance. I'm not sure I'd want it in the house, to be honest, as I'm sure the hum would get on your nerves after a while, even though it is pretty quiet. It's the way low frequency sound like this travels, and is hard to attenuate, that would concern me. Point taken Jeremy, think I will create a small outdoor cabinet where the ASHP, Gas bottles etc are located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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