Rules on LPG cylinder positioning?

[ProDave]

I have recently been informed we may not be allowed to keep our pair of 47kg propane cylinders where they are and might need to relocate them.

 

Does anyone have a copy of the nice drawing that shows all the distances that must be complied with with respect to doors, windows, vents, drains etc please?

[Onoff]

These help?

 

cylinder-storage-information.pdf

code-of-guidance-for-storage-of-cylinders.pdf

[joe90]

19 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I have recently been informed

by whom? (Just looked at the above and I am ok, that’s lucky as I did not know there were regulations).

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, joe90 said:

by whom? (Just looked at the above and I am ok, that’s lucky as I did not know there were regulations).

Building control.

 

Here is a picture grabbed from one of the documents that @Onoff posted

 

But it does not answer my question and poses another one.

 

At the back of my house is a sun room (orangery)  measuring a little over 3 metres on each side.  There will be windows or doors on all sides, so no "plain" wall.

 

the cylinders are in the middle of the back wall.  That wall will have two large NON OPENING and non ventilated windows.

 

That drawing does not show a non opening window.

 

It implies an opening window can be 300mm above the cylinders but does not make it clear if that opening window could be directly above the cylinders as the one shown in the picture is off to one side, but with no dimension to the side shown.

 

But what is now worrying me is it shows 3M from the cylinders to the corner of the building.  Is that a minimum?  If so I am not going to achieve 3M each side of the cylinders when the wall is only just over 3M long.  That is a new one I was not expecting.

 

[Russell griffiths]

Doesn’t that pic show 3m to the toxic materials not the corner of the building @ProDave

[joe90]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But what is now worrying me is it shows 3M from the cylinders to the corner of the building.

No, that’s 3m from toxic materials !!! Frankly a non opening window is the same as a plain wall IMO.

[Onoff]

Just now, Russell griffiths said:

Doesn’t that pic show 3m to the toxic materials not the corner of the building @ProDave

 

Was just about to say the same.

[ProDave]

Just now, Russell griffiths said:

Doesn’t that pic show 3m to the toxic materials not the corner of the building @ProDave

Yes I think you are right, so that worry goes.

 

So it's just the window thing.  Either there is no issue with a non opening window?  Or if the opening window rules apply I would need confirmation that the window can be directly above the cylinders and I might have to raise the window slightly to get the 300mm.

 

I also might have to move a couple of air bricks.

[Onoff]

8 hours ago, ProDave said:

Yes I think you are right, so that worry goes.

 

So it's just the window thing.  Either there is no issue with a non opening window?  Or if the opening window rules apply I would need confirmation that the window can be directly above the cylinders and I might have to raise the window slightly to get the 300mm.

 

I also might have to move a couple of air bricks.

 

Is a window, non opening or otherwise considered enough of a physical barrier (against explosion I presume)? And would traditional bricks and mortar stand up better than a TF house? 

 

You might point out to BC that not only is your window non opening but that particular attention had been paid to air (thus I imagine) gas tightness.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Onoff

[Onoff]

There's a load more links to regulatory documents that might be pertinent here:

 

https://www.gascageshop.co.uk/hse-guidelines#:~:text=No opening into buildings%2C cellars,propane%2C butane and dissolved acetylene.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Onoff

[ProDave]

I am still looking for the drawing I have seen previously that was more of a black and white line drawing that I recall showed things like non opening windows.

 

This issue came up when we built an extension to a previous house and I recall the BC inspector getting his tape measure out and he was only concerned with the distance to an opening window.  But I would loke to find something that says there is no distance limit to a non opening window.

 

I have been and measured and currently the cylinders sit on a pallet, and the top of the cylinders are 150mm below the bottom of the window.  The pallet will be replaced with paving slabs set level with the ground so that would bring it to 250mm, so if I have to abide by 300mm from the top of the cylinder to the bottom of the window it would be easy to just raise the bottom of the window a bit.  The windows for the sun room have not been ordered yet which is why I need to get this detail right before I order them.

[Temp]

Page 67 of Approved Doc J

[ProDave]

This is what Scottish building regs say (no pretty picture)

 

 

4.11.3 LPG storage - cylinders

Where an LPG storage installation consists of a set of cylinders, the installation should be in accordance with the UKLPG Code of Practice 24: 'Use of LPG cylinders': Part 1 - 'The Use of Propane in Cylinders at Residential Premises'.

Use of cylinders in a domestic installation commonly takes the form of 2 sets of paired cylinders connected to a manifold, with supply provided from one pair of cylinders at any one time. This allows continuous supply to be maintained when changing empty cylinders.

Any installation should enable cylinders to stand upright, secured by straps or chains against a wall outside the building.

Cylinders should be positioned on a firm, level base such as concrete at least 50mm thick or paving slabs bedded on mortar, and located in a well-ventilated position at ground level, so that the cylinder valves will be:

at least 1m horizontally and 300mm vertically from openings in the buildings or from heat source such as flue terminals or tumble dryer vents

at least 2m horizontally from untrapped drains, unsealed gullies or cellar hatches unless an intervening wall not less that 250mm high is present.

Cylinders should be readily accessible, reasonably protected from physical damage and located where they do not obstruct escape routes from the building.

 

 

So 1M horizontally to my air bricks.

No untgrapped drains within 2M

 

And 300mm vertically to an "opening"

 

So if my windows open, they must be 300mm above the cylinders.

 

but the thing I can't get an answer on and BC are arguing, is  does a fixed, non opening, sealed window count as an "opening" in the building.  My BC officer says yes.

 

It looks like my only certain route is raise the window height slightly so the windows are all 300mm above the cylinders, then the argument of whether they are an "opening" or not goes away.  But I would love to find something that either shows or states clearly that a fixed non opening window is not an "opening"

[Onoff]

Can you not dig a little pit thus lowering the cylinders?

[Mr Punter]

4 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Can you not dig a little pit thus lowering the cylinders?

 

I think a pit would be bad to have as can contain leaked gas.

[ProDave]

4 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Can you not dig a little pit thus lowering the cylinders?

No. There are rules on pits due to Propane being heavier than air, so you are not allowed cylinders "underground"  the best I can do is paving slabs level with the ground.

 

Unless I can find a document or drawing that shows non opening windows I will have to go with raising my window heights slightly which will make the windows slightly smaller.  At the moment it is a bare shell so it is easy to block up the window opening to make it a bit smaller.  It is a good job I had not already got the windows here or I would now be stuck with no sollution.

[joe90]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

but the thing I can't get an answer on and BC are arguing, is  does a fixed, non opening, sealed window count as an "opening" in the building.  My BC officer says yes.

I disagree, otherwise it would have said “window”, not “opening window “  I found this on the Calor website...

 

“There should be no openings into buildings, cellars or pits within 2m of an LPG storage area or the separation distance given in Table 1, whichever is greater. If there is an unavoidable opening within 2m, the opening should be securely covered and fitted with a suitable water seal to prevent the entry of vapour.”

 

it’s all about vapour entering the building and a non opening window is effectively a water seal as above IMO. Tell your BC chap you got this from Calor! ?

[ProDave]

57 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I disagree, otherwise it would have said “window”, not “opening window “  I found this on the Calor website...

 

“There should be no openings into buildings, cellars or pits within 2m of an LPG storage area or the separation distance given in Table 1, whichever is greater. If there is an unavoidable opening within 2m, the opening should be securely covered and fitted with a suitable water seal to prevent the entry of vapour.”

 

it’s all about vapour entering the building and a non opening window is effectively a water seal as above IMO. Tell your BC chap you got this from Calor! ?

I think that refers to things at ground level e.g an opening to a basement just like a non trapped drain must be 2m from the cylinders.

 

An opening window on a wall as shown on that pretty picture above can be 1M from the cylinders and it implies, though does not clearly show, if less than 1M horizontally from the cylinders must be 300mm above.

 

I guess what I am seeking to show my dumb BC officer is something that shows a non opening window can be anywhere, or at least that an opening window can be directly above the cylinders as long as it is 300mm above them.  Unfortunately that picture shows the window that is 300mm above them off to one side by an unspecified distance.

 

I guess I should just throw it back to them and say "you show me where it says I CAN'T" but I would like to search a bit more for better documentary evidence first.

[dpmiller]

what would they say about a wall of glass bricks I wonder Dave?

[Onoff]

26 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I guess what I am seeking to show my dumb BC officer is something that shows a non opening window can be anywhere, or at least that an opening window can be directly above the cylinders as long as it is 300mm above them.

 

There's this image:

 

 

Here:

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/home-energy/new-to-lpg/my-options/lpg-installation-options?tabname=lpg-cylinders

[ProDave]

4 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

There's this image:

 

 

Here:

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/home-energy/new-to-lpg/my-options/lpg-installation-options?tabname=lpg-cylinders

So close, BUT that 300mm above the cylinders is not very clear.  I have That implies it is above the regulator that is an unspecified distance above the top of the cylinder?

 

the picture in  post 4 shows the 300mm is above the top of the cylinder.

[ProDave]

I guess if I were to game the system, I could install a pair of 19kg cylinders which being so short would easily give ample clearance under the window however you measure the 300mm height, and swap them (back) for 47kg cylinders later.  They way I am feeling about BC just now I just might do that.

[joe90]

I would just argue that the regs say “opening window “ yours is not (and the calor website confirms this).

[ProDave]

Yes I think I will just raise the bottom of my windows slightly so they are 300mm above the top of the cylinders, and if they get arsey on completion, swap them for the shorter 19kg cylinders (and swap them straight back again)

[joe90]

32 minutes ago, ProDave said:

think I will just raise the bottom of my windows slightly so they are 300mm above the top of the cylinders,

why bother, just use 19kg (like I do) then swop them after BC chap is long gone (I still say he is wrong).