PeterW Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 Mitsubishi are behind a number of the unbranded units as they sell OEM compressors to the likes of IVT (now Bosch) and others. It is the same as Carrier did in the 90’s with AC units. Interfacing into the Mitsubishi is a little easier due to the separate control box but tbh unless you want to run some funky HA system the controls that come with the units are perfectly adequate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SuperJohnG said: I've had my mind set in an ecodan for some time. Was sure it's abiut 6k for a 8.5kW unit. But I may just rethink that as they are good units., but seems there might be good savings available with alternatives. I assume your 6k is ASHP and UVC? An 8.5kW ecodan is £3500 without VAT which can be reclaimed. Edited February 14, 2021 by LA3222 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, LA3222 said: I assume your 6k is ASHP and UVC? An 8.5kW ecodan is £2900 without VAT which can be reclaimed. I take it that is minus the FTC5 which is another £750 or so ..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 Just now, PeterW said: I take it that is minus the FTC5 which is another £750 or so ..? Yep lol, just amended my price as you quoted me ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Iceverge said: From my reading about sunamps the electrically heated models had issues. I don't know if this is still the case. The newest model ( internal ctrls ) seems to have a lot of wrinkles ironed out, but the units with external ctrls are still being revisited or even outright replaced. I know of 4 such cases since before Xmas, with one gone nuclear and it spewing out all the PCM SA were quick to respond, positively, and I had an honest explanation from their new technical chap which made a lot of sense. Perhaps the recognition and subsequent rectification of these issues is the cause for the not inconsequential uplift of the purchase cost. Been a long time coming, but hopefully the new units are a reliable iteration. Only time will tell I suppose ? Edited February 14, 2021 by Nickfromwales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperJohnG Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 32 minutes ago, LA3222 said: I assume your 6k is ASHP and UVC? An 8.5kW ecodan is £3500 without VAT which can be Pretty sure it was. It was from when I was building my budget I'm sure I picked that price up and stuck it in the spreadsheet. Here's hoping I overestimated there...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 5 hours ago, SuperJohnG said: I've had my mind set in an ecodan for some time. Was sure it's abiut 6k for a 8.5kW unit. But I may just rethink that as they are good units., but seems there might be good savings available with alternatives. There are quite a few on Facebook market place. One seller has 8 second hand ones for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 49 minutes ago, Triassic said: There are quite a few on Facebook market place. One seller has 8 second hand ones for sale. From what I can see on another forum people buy a new house that had one, hate it, or bills are through the roof as they’ve not been set up properly and then rip them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Triassic said: There are quite a few on Facebook market place. One seller has 8 second hand ones for sale. Bit strange having 8 second hand for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted February 14, 2021 Author Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Declan52 said: Bit strange having 8 second hand for sale. Not if customers are removing then, as @newhome has suggested, to replace them with something more familiar. I have a friend with does the electrical installations for an ASHP installation company and he tells me some of the houses he’s visiting to do installations definatly haven’t followed the Fabric First principles and wondered if some customers are being miss sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 12 minutes ago, Triassic said: wondered if some customers are being miss sold. I’m sure some are. I think unless you have a really modern new build with great insulation and decent air tightness then they can be very expensive to run. I’ve been considering one as a retrofit here but although I’m on 100% electric currently my bills are manageable and I have no annual maintenance costs. I clean out the magnafilter from time to time and that’s about it. If I moved to an ASHP I would need annual maintenance on both the UVC and ASHP to preserve the warranty which would just about negate any saving I might make via the heat pump’s COP, and from what I can tell you have to plan the use of your DHW carefully with an ASHP. Currently I can switch on the boiler and have water hot enough to run a full bath in 30 minutes or less. If they ever get round to providing smart meters for 3 phase I can move to something like Octopus Agile and save money by putting the heating on during the cheap hours. I’ve swapped to putting it on overnight rather than late afternoon because I have worked from home for nearly a year now but it has also demonstrated to me that I could easily run it at the cheaper rates when I get the opportunity to. On a heat pump forum I’ve been looking at there are so many people complaining about how much the running costs are. The stock answer appears to be ‘well it’s been cold’ but my usage averages about £5 a day in winter and that’s for everything; car (although not being used much these days), washing machine, dryer, dishwasher et al. Some people on the heat pump forum are spending £10 a day on heating and DHW with an ASHP. I wonder what Zoot’s bill will be like when one finally arrives ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 7 minutes ago, newhome said: I wonder what Zoot’s bill will be like when one finally arrives (expletive deleted) all as he only lets it run for minutes. I keep seeing the 'works best in a modern, well insulated, airtight houses'. We really must top this statement as it is really an incorrectly sized system for the house that is the problem. If you need to deliver x kW to cover your peak load, then fitting something that is x-y kW will not do, It will be too small, don't matter if it is gas, electricity, oil, coal or wood. Too small is too small, end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Too small is too small, end of. True but when people have ripped out an oil boiler and been told that it will save them money that's got to be pretty unlikely in cold weather surely even if the system is designed correctly as the difference in price between oil and electric is much more than you will save at this time of year when the COP is taken into account? Everyone is very keen to lower their carbon emissions until it starts to hit their wallet significantly. And I think the big problem is that not enough people understand how they should work optimally even when they are so called Trustmark and MCS registered. I had 3 quotes - 3 completely different sizes of ASHP specified. I had 8.5kw, 12kw and 18kw in 3 different quotes. How the hell is the customer supposed to know which one is correct? 24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: (expletive deleted) all as he only lets it run for minutes. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 25 minutes ago, newhome said: True but when people have ripped out an oil boiler and been told that it will save them money that's got to be pretty unlikely in cold weather surely even if the system is designed correctly as the difference in price between oil and electric is much more than you will save at this time of year Isn't that like claiming a car a cost a fortune in fuel when it gets filled up, but totally ignoring all the days it does not get filled up. 28 minutes ago, newhome said: Everyone is very keen to lower their carbon emissions until it starts to hit their wallet significantly I don't think the vast majority of people give two hoots about emissions, they want the cheapest. Even if they don't understand the technology. Selling it on emissions is a dead end. If I had said in 1974, "I have seen the future of motoring, it weights 2 tonnes and does 15 MPG" I would have been laughed at, but Land Rover have sold 1,000,000 Sports versions of the Range Rover. 32 minutes ago, newhome said: And I think the big problem is that not enough people understand how they should work optimally even when they are so called Trustmark and MCS registered. I had 3 quotes - 3 completely different sizes of ASHP specified. I had 8.5kw, 12kw and 18kw in 3 different quotes. How the hell is the customer supposed to know which one is correct? By learning about them, it really is not complicated, just a bit of addition and multiplication. There are plenty of resources to find out about them, but also plenty of dreadful one. People need to treat it the same as buying a car. You probably needed the 18 kW model for your sized house, but only the 8.5 kW to cover your basic needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: You probably needed the 18 kW model for your sized house, but only the 8.5 kW to cover your basic needs. All 3 quotes were done on a 'whole house usage' supposedly. 19 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: You probably needed the 18 kW model for your sized house, but only the 8.5 kW to cover your basic needs. Not really because you won't need to use oil on the low days either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, newhome said: If they ever get round to providing smart meters for 3 phase I can move to something like Octopus Agile Octopus do a 3 phase smart meter, well at least down these parts they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 My general impression is like Steamy says, a lack of understanding leads to the default/easy answer of the system is crap. Tends to be the case with most things in life and as pointed out if the system is sized so that energy in = energy out then what's the issue. If the house is all electric then ASHP seems like a no brainer to me. If you also throw solar into the mix then surely an ASHP is the ideal condiment to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Russdl said: Octopus do a 3 phase smart meter, well at least down these parts they do. Yeah and I’ve asked for one and am supposedly on the list. When I enquired again back in the summer I was told “it will be a long wait unfortunately”. I’ve been ‘on the list’ for over a year now. Their standard tariff is miles more expensive than the one I’m on now so I’m staying put for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 hours ago, LA3222 said: If the house is all electric then ASHP seems like a no brainer to me. If you also throw solar into the mix then surely an ASHP is the ideal condiment to go with it. Well it depends. What I’ve got now works (well apart from the solar thermal) and costs me nothing to maintain pretty much. An ASHP would cost a fair bit of cash upfront and I doubt it would ever pay back in the time that I live in this house. My nervousness at having 3 quotes that are miles apart in terms of spec and cost (one was almost 30k!) leaves me thinking that I may as well opt for the safe option and stay as I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 7 hours ago, newhome said: Well it depends. What I’ve got now works (well apart from the solar thermal) and costs me nothing to maintain pretty much. An ASHP would cost a fair bit of cash upfront and I doubt it would ever pay back in the time that I live in this house. My nervousness at having 3 quotes that are miles apart in terms of spec and cost (one was almost 30k!) leaves me thinking that I may as well opt for the safe option and stay as I am. Have you done your own quote. Sit down, work out your thermal losses (you have the data already), then go looking for the parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted February 17, 2021 Author Share Posted February 17, 2021 Just dusted off my heat loss calculations and my old budget spreadsheet. I’ve got current ASHP and UVC prices, but am struggling to find current Sunamp UniQ12 prices (solar PV). Anyone got a current price of Sunamp ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 On 12/02/2021 at 12:14, SteamyTea said: It is for a swimming pool. Or a Jacuzzi, or more specifically not for DHW or conventional CH. It also has a flow inverter so it can cool as well as heat. Given that I only need <30°C for my slab, and I can't make the payback case for a premium ASHP, I must admit that I am seriously considering one of the rebadged Chinese imports for my UFH application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 Decisions Decisions! Ecodan R32 Ultra Quiet PUZ Monobloc Air Source Heat Pump 8.5kw £3210 ex Vat or Panasonic 9kW Aquarea Monobloc Heat Pump £2910 ex VAT Is one make better than another? What hidden extras should I be aware of? Controllers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Triassic said: Decisions Decisions! Ecodan R32 Ultra Quiet PUZ Monobloc Air Source Heat Pump 8.5kw £3210 ex Vat or Panasonic 9kW Aquarea Monobloc Heat Pump £2910 ex VAT Is one make better than another? What hidden extras should I be aware of? Controllers? Do they both have a cooling mode (if that's something you want)? We have a 5kW Aquarea, and I know that at the time I bought them, only some were officially capable of reverse cycle operation. My Aquarea is 5 years old, but came with the basic controller. I seem to recall that the smarter controller was a lot more expensive, but I suspect things like app-based operation and control are more common now. Worth checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 (edited) According to the blurb - The Aquarea Monobloc J generation heat pump supplies water for cooling, heating and/or for storing domestic hot water. Can't find any info on cooling for the Ecodan! Edited March 5, 2021 by Triassic typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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