Patchin up me porch

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

What would you do at the reveal areas? IE now Ive removed 3-4cm layer of old whatever mortar stuff, Ive now got this bad 1-2cm gap from stonework to jams. If I just repoint these reveals, gap isn't closed at all. Foam in.. then plaster or something?

 

Or should I be putting back a thick 3cm of render/ mortar whatever it is, back on these upright reveals, including underside of lintel stones?

I would foam the 1-2cm gap leaving enough depth, around 20mm, to point it up.

[TonyT]

For the gap at the door frame use 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-TROWST-Stone-Trowel-Mastic/dp/B0013B95YC/ref=asc_df_B0013B95YC/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=214440742293&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16323749131247911257&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046864&hvtargid=pla-420778815299&psc=1

 

Available from builders merchants too.

apply with a trowel ( funny that) and smooth to a finish.

 

 

[Onoff]

A pointing gun might be good but not all lime mortars are suitable for guns and vice versa.

 

 

[joe90]

I would use one of these with a hawk. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THIN-NARROW-FINGER-TUCK-POINTING-POINTER-TOOL-JOINTING-TROWEL-BRICK-LAYING-14A/331402965074?epid=1743515516&hash=item4d2927f052:g:HkEAAOSwaNBUfd~o

[TonyT]

I’m with Joe90 on the tuck trowel, different widths available and are excellent.

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

I would foam the 1-2cm gap leaving enough depth, around 20mm, to point it up.

Yes get this.. the gap does go quite deep, so if mortar filled would go in then fall down.. i guess i admit.

 

So use so of the lime mortar to fill this trench? No new mix needed? Better pics coming up..

 

thx Peter

[zoothorn]

@Onoff that gun looks the biz. But i did buy a cheapo two ended mini pointing trowel thing.. will have to do i think unless those guns reasonably cheap, dont expect so.

 

Yes that gap you referred to in that pic you put up.. are the ones in q. Better pic here ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

 @Onoff @joe90 you can see the pretty whopping hole, aa battery here etc, also the thick render layer im prizing off below it.

 

So its right to take all this layer off, i mean i havent gone ott and shoulda left some of the firmer stuff on? It mostly tapped hollow. But of course i didnt think that was to do with the void behind, rather than the surface 'popped', which is fairly idiotic, but par for course for me.

 

 

[joe90]

Yes, foam that nearly full leaving 20mm fir pointing. Save holding a big hawk I sometimes use a bucket trowel to hold the mix and thin trowel to push it in. 

[Onoff]

It may well be slightly damp in that cavity which will help the foam stick. Not usually an issue to give where you're foaming a dampening from a plant sprayer beforehand.

 

If you go a bit mad with the foam and it's not the low expansion type then make sure the door is shut whilst it sets. You don't want to bow the jam. Unlikely but you never know.

 

 

[zoothorn]

17 hours ago, Onoff said:

It may well be slightly damp in that cavity which will help the foam stick. Not usually an issue to give where you're foaming a dampening from a plant sprayer beforehand.

 

If you go a bit mad with the foam and it's not the low expansion type then make sure the door is shut whilst it sets. You don't want to bow the jam. Unlikely but you never know.

 

 

 

Onoff I'm really struggling with this job. The idea of pointing, & brushing off stone, is totally not applicable for this whole area. The reason is a welded-on layer of 1830 white lime-surface whatever stuff, underneath a welded-on layer of 1960's stuff ontop. Plus the craggy non-flat surafces (mostly). This means Im spending huge ammount of time chisseling each 1 sq inch, before even getting to brushing, to remove all this. Its just not tennable to continue, over the whole area, as Id be weeks doing it just to prep. If the stone faces were flat.. this would be possible, just.

 

I must consider the original idea. This being to both point up, plus, cover the whole faces with something (mortar/ render I dont understand), like it was approximately before, in order to A) retain the look of the rest of the old cottage walls, and B) to be able then to white it.

 

Im also extremely concerned about the ammount of render/ mortar whatever it is 1 inch layer Im removing around the 3 reveal sides. especially under the lintel: I keep pulling out such big chunks Im concerned about the structure. I think its fair to say I haven't got a clue what Im doing.

 

 

[zoothorn]

The impossible to get clear craggy stone surfaces..

 

And the huge chunks im taking out under the lintel stones.. 

 

[zoothorn]

If anyone can help.

 

What I seem to be pulling out, from under lintel stones, is chunks of concrete. Now I dont know if this is 'render', or 'mortar', or concrete. Or whether all are words for the same thing.

 

The top of the door frame, where its been in contact with earth "mortar" is rotten. But only 1cm or so: thankfully its mostly sound.

 

But whether this wood 'lintel' is actually holding the lintel stones up (I cant see how a piece of wood is meant to bear the weight of alot of stone) I don't know.  I must prep this area, make sure its structurally sound, before I continue. Do I even need the builder in-? i dont know.

 

I'm sure my welsh house name translates as 'can of worms'.

[zoothorn]

Can anyone help?

 

Having removed the old mortar stuff under the  lintel, Ive found one of the lintel 'diagonal' stones (seems to be two halves, one ontop the other) actually moves a bit, IE the lower section.

 

So if I take out the concrete mortar below it, just above the door frame, it'll likely fall.. which in turn will surely mean the next diagonal stone will too.. then the whole series (if they're wedged in together).

 

I need to sort out this lintel area. I'm really stuck at the mo. & getting concerned.

 

thanks zoot.

[Roundtuit]

OK.  If the lintel is basically sound, I'd repoint the bit you've done before you rake out any more mortar, and then do a bit at a time until it's complete.  I see what you mean about cleaning up the stone.  I'd probably re-point and paint it white first, and then if I didn't like it, render it and re-paint.

 

And why are the curtains closed?  You working naked again?? ?

[PeterW]

@zoothorn that lintel is self supporting - the shape of the stones gives it away. Just don’t take out too much from the vertical joints on the header stones - they look pretty good anyway. 

[zoothorn]

23 minutes ago, PeterW said:

@zoothorn that lintel is self supporting - the shape of the stones gives it away. Just don’t take out too much from the vertical joints on the header stones - they look pretty good anyway. 

 

I can sort of see what you mean, but if ive got one of these offset lintel header stones split across its midrift in two, and the lower half is wobbly only being supported in place by the concrete mortar below it ( sort of wedged in between it and the frame top) then if this  bit of already slightly loose mortar comes out, the lower section of this stone will fall.. then i cant see how the whole lot of these headers won't fall too if they're self supporting.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Roundtuit said:

OK.  If the lintel is basically sound, I'd repoint the bit you've done before you rake out any more mortar, and then do a bit at a time until it's complete.  I see what you mean about cleaning up the stone.  I'd probably re-point and paint it white first, and then if I didn't like it, render it and re-paint.

 

And why are the curtains closed?  You working naked again?? ?

This makes sense. But its the underside of these header stones im most concerned about. Its replacing this concrete mortar stuff.. and the slightly rotten door frame too.

 

What would you paint it with tho? Its covering this lime mortar stuff afaict is the thing preventing me doing this.

 

No i get such little light in this side over winter its not worth opening them.

 

 

[Roundtuit]

The stuff under the lintel is doing nothing much really;  it looks like the frame was fitted after the stone was rendered. Unless you want to replace the frame, just foam and repoint as already suggested.  Paint with something breathable - whitewash was traditional, high opacity emulsion would do it, or maybe a masonry paint (but perhaps that's not ideal for rendering over).

[zoothorn]

Can someone comment on this youtube short clip. It seems to fit the way my walls are made, stone & mud, laid onto the ground. Also my rising damp which tho not too bad, I think these old 4 shell walls do suffer from, likely due to the cement render + coating ontop too, and inside seems to be thickly emulsioned, IE both sides unbreathable.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BwgGY1N0o

 

This is what I had sort of thought originally, this area needed, IE a lime mortar render, over the whole faces: so perhaps not repointing (because maybe the surface craggyness of the stone used wouldn't, mostly let's say, leave a particularly aesthetically decent finish.. & never meant to be seen perhaps just welsh-whited over?), more re-rendering.

 

Any idea where this might be, ireland.. aus?

 

 

[joe90]

Sounds Australian to me, wot I said originally cement out, lime in. Breathable.

[SteamyTea]

14 hours ago, joe90 said:

wot I said originally cement out, lime in. Breathable.

I have been looking for some number to back this up (I know someone else did a while back).

I seem to remember that there was little difference between a cement or a lime render.

There are two units used:

kg.s^-1.m^-2.d^-1 

and

m³.s^-1.m^-2.d^-1 

Sometimes this is modified to take pressure into account, this this is not really relevant to building houses, more for testing purposes.

 

I have not managed to find any decent data.

 

[joe90]

http://www.limerestoration.co.uk/why_lime_mortar_render.html

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

http://www.limerestoration.co.uk/why_lime_mortar_render.html

That is just an opinion piece from a supplier of lime.

Someone had some actual numbers.  I can find them for other materials, just not cement and lime (though this may be because the mixes can vary so much).

 

Here is a page that shows how to calculate it, and has some material numbers at the bottom.

 

[zoothorn]

21 hours ago, joe90 said:

Sounds Australian to me, wot I said originally cement out, lime in. Breathable.

Yes he's aussie.. but assuming cottage isnt, as i think the few comments concur, ie cottage too old to be in aus.