Patchin up me porch

[PeterW]

If you have a CCF Agri near you they sell Snowcem Plus which is a powder breathable paint that you mix yourself. It is designed for houses like yours as it lets moisture out of the walls. 

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

If you have a CCF Agri near you they sell Snowcem Plus which is a powder breathable paint that you mix yourself. It is designed for houses like yours as it lets moisture out of the walls. 

Well theres one 20 m away, but Im thinking just for this small 2 sqm porch area to paint, not being outside & weathered, maybe Just dulux weathershield or even emulsion as joe says ' just crack on'. Its bound to be costly, ill have most of it just left too you see.. Ill bear in mind for future tho.
 

thanks zoot

[PeterW]

Inside then use emulsion - weather shield both sides will cause issues trapping water. Nice thing about that lime mortar is when you’ve used what you need, splash a bit of water onto the surface and close the lid tight and it will still be good in 6-9 months. Cement will just go off. 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW so emulsion is more breathable than dlx w'shield.. ? and emulsion on lime mortar is ok?

[zoothorn]

On 21/11/2020 at 08:28, PeterW said:

Inside then use emulsion - weather shield both sides will cause issues trapping water. Nice thing about that lime mortar is when you’ve used what you need, splash a bit of water onto the surface and close the lid tight and it will still be good in 6-9 months. Cement will just go off. 

Peter have you used this exact stuff from Celtic? 20 kg tub, might equate volumewise to what one of the big nononsense bare plaster paint jobs 16 quid? If you know what i mean.

[zoothorn]

Chaps is there anything else apart from this Celtic Sustainables ready mix mortar i can go for? Its 88 m there & back, & if i take out all the rotten grey cement mortar, down to the old earth (i think i shouldn't leave any rotten grey in at all, should i? ).. im gonna need 3 tubs of this, as my depth is often a good 2"  with big wide chasms galore to fill.
 

what i mean is, considering its inside, and covered in paint after, i dont need the best looking stuff/ aesthtics are irrelevant.. and it will have protection from frost i think, certainly no rain on.
 

Thanks zh.

[Onoff]

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Chaps is there anything else apart from this Celtic Sustainables ready mix mortar i can go for? Its 88 m there & back, & if i take out all the rotten grey cement mortar, down to the old earth (i think i shouldn't leave any rotten grey in at all, should i? ).. im gonna need 3 tubs of this, as my depth is often a good 2"  with big wide chasms galore to fill.
 

what i mean is, considering its inside, and covered in paint after, i dont need the best looking stuff/ aesthtics are irrelevant.. and it will have protection from frost i think, certainly no rain on.
 

Thanks zh.

 

Lime mortar from somewhere else then. In big bags that you mix yourself. You can complain then about the mess and ask what to do with the leftovers. 

 

I recommended it as was in a tub and easy. Why start whining about distance? You Google it. Or ring Celtic up yourself and ask if there is anywhere nearer. Use Covid as an excuse for not wanting to travel.

[PeterW]

Nope it’s just the same stuff that Mike Wye sell and I’ve used theirs.  It’s about the size of a 10 or so litre paint bucket from memory. 
 

If you can get natural hydraulic lime in a bag locally you can mix your own with sand 1:3 but you have to use a mixer, and have to mix it for about 20-25 minutes per batch. It also goes off quicker than the bucket stuff and is fairly difficult to mix small batches. 
 

Ring Celtic and ask them for their shipping rates. 

[Onoff]

You never know, somebody at Celtic might live half way between you and them. Worth an ask for the sake of a phone call. 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

You never know, somebody at Celtic might live half way between you and them. Worth an ask for the sake of a phone call. 

 

Ok thanks/ get the point your making. Thing is it says one tub of celtic will repoint 10mm deep, 1sqm. Ive got like 4x this depth & prolly 2sqm & cant run out: so £80 + £20 fuel.. alot/ I also got little time to fit this drive in tbh. will call tho.

 

Bag, & mix with a red paint mix rod thing end of drill driver-?

[zoothorn]

@PeterW or @Onoff 

 

Im back on the prep for this, but removing so much/ going so deep to get the grey soft mortar out, Im getting concerned.
 

As you can see here. On the door reveal 3 sides there's a good 1/2" of soft mortar layer on the surface, just pops off.. im getting the heebies taking it off under the lintel area especially. 
 

Is there anything to worry about, or just crack on, not worry about depth and ammount im removing? None of the stones are shifting, apart from a few small thin packing slate bits, but how the lintel series are being held in.. omg.

 

thx zh

 

 

[zoothorn]

Im digging in a good 3 cm at the frame edge here.. and generally, often 5 cm deep on the wall faces.

 

 

[PeterW]

That timber frame looks like it’s holding things up so don’t panic but a good 2-3” is ideal. Looks good !! Wire brush that paint off and leave it as it’s lovely stone. 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW crikey I hope the frame's not holding it all up.. but could be if its 1830. possible it is original I guess.

 

So just pull all this reveal mortar/ render off? as you can see it leaves a void inside the frame, its a good inch of it.

 

The stone in some areas is nice, like the lintel area here, but most all isn't really suitable for being left natural, the faces are just not good enough really/ alot of hodge podge sharp fill slate & river stones. So the idea is to white it all, to blend in with rest of house.

 

I do have some damp (yellowing of the lower 2ft, main wall & reveal either side of door) now whether that's bc this render Im pulling off has trapped it, or, whether I just have rising damp here (I suspect so) I'm not sure. So how I'll be able to paint this I'm not sure either.

[jfb]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

That timber frame looks like it’s holding things up so don’t panic

I reckon you could take that frame out and the brick lintel would go nowhere. I've a couple myself that look a bit like that (maybe even less of an arch on them).

 

 

[jfb]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

Wire brush that paint off and leave it as it’s lovely stone. 

Just what I was thinking!

 

If you do decide to render make sure you don't do it in one go. You need to fill in the gaps you are digging out first - throwing the mortar into the gaps with a trowel is the quickest way and gets it into the gaps nicely. Then render once it is a bit flatter.

[zoothorn]

Ok thanks @jfb that's reasurring.. but I am seeing only crumbly mud as 'mortar' between all the stone: extremely disconcerting tbh, but, surely all the soft grey mortar ontop, none of it should be left in/ I gotta remove it all, however deep it goes.. right?

 

I'm still a bit confused about re-pointing, and rendering. At 1st the idea was to repoint, altho I was also finding & pulling off a popped layer on the stone faces too (thin 3mm render? covered by a 2mm of sprayed-on 'seal' lightly-knobbly surface lord knows what.. I find this over whole of outside old shell). Then, the re-pointing original idea sort of increaced to a good inch of (I assume) render around the reveals/ up to the frame was soft too.

 

So I was repointing, with lime mortar (yet to buy tubs of ready mix). Now what I'm doing Ive no idea! repointing -and- rendering? with the same lime mortar stuff.. or two different things.

[Onoff]

39 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ok thanks @jfb that's reasurring.. but I am seeing only crumbly mud as 'mortar' between all the stone: extremely disconcerting tbh, but, surely all the soft grey mortar ontop, none of it should be left in/ I gotta remove it all, however deep it goes.. right?

 

I'm still a bit confused about re-pointing, and rendering. At 1st the idea was to repoint, altho I was also finding & pulling off a popped layer on the stone faces too (thin 3mm render? covered by a 2mm of sprayed-on 'seal' lightly-knobbly surface lord knows what.. I find this over whole of outside old shell). Then, the re-pointing original idea sort of increaced to a good inch of (hiI assume) render around the reveals/ up to the frame was soft too.

 

So I was repointing, with lime mortar (yet to buy tubs of ready mix). Now what I'm doing Ive no idea! repointing -and- rendering? with the same lime mortar stuff.. or two different things.

 

You're repointing not rebuilding! If you remove all what's in the mortar joints you well might get stones fall out. I'd dig out no more than a couple of inches deep. Try and ram solid what's left in the gap with a bit of timber. Then the ready mix lime mortar over the top. Clean a stone face at a time picking off all the old render. 

 

I really would have this as a feature and not repaint. Could look fantastic. I Googled "Welsh cottage wall repointing" btw. Picked at random but how good does this look?

 

http://gwyneddrestoration.co.uk/re-pointing-stonework-brick-lime-mortar/

 

Where the exposed stone wall comes up to say a corner or frame you could always add a bit of timber to separate the two visually and "frame" the nice stone feature wall. 

 

And it'll breathe!

Edited December 12, 2020 by Onoff

[zoothorn]

@Onoff but its only the lintel stones faced decently enough to do the natural idea- these would look great yes.. but the rest is craggy stuff uneven rough faces, bits n bobs fill.. it's just not gonna be a looker (pics), & it'll not be in unison with white cottage. even just the lintel left 'exposed'.

 

So I need to white it, but keep the stone contour.

 

(friend whose an amateur builder just said 'no just render over the lot', as its inside.. but won't jump to his opinion before here).

 

I defo need to put stuff on the reveals to cover the void, not just repoint here, so a good inch+ back on here.

 

So should I use standard render/ mortar, plus lime (I'll likely buy bags now, use ^ friends mixer & drive it over, give him the 1/2 bags left.. 88m in fuel for 3x £30 of ready mix tubs is too much I think).. & just use this as the render and also the repointing mortar?

 

or am I barking up the wrong tree.. Im still not on board with mortar/ render difference.

 

 

[zoothorn]

22 hours ago, PeterW said:

That timber frame looks like it’s holding things up so don’t panic but a good 2-3” is ideal. Looks good !! Wire brush that paint off and leave it as it’s lovely stone. 

Peter Im mulling over idea of leaving as stone, mainly cos i cant understand how else to do it/ not getting this render- mortar thing.

 

So from my pics, you can see the walls are half just decent enough stone at best perhaps, half craggy crap tho (apart from the good lintel stones).. do you think this is decent enough to leave as stone?

 

And of course then, I'll just have the odd situation of exposed stone in the porch, but rest of house/ the majority of (and continuation of the same walls) white. Won't this be odd?

[Gone West]

16 hours ago, zoothorn said:

And of course then, I'll just have the odd situation of exposed stone in the porch, but rest of house/ the majority of (and continuation of the same walls) white. Won't this be odd?

I would strip off all the old white paint in that area if not already done. Repair the stonework and leave to dry. Lime will take a little while in the winter anyway giving you time to decide if you like it or not. Then you can paint it all if you want.

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

I would strip off all the old white paint in that area if not already done. Repair the stonework and leave to dry. Lime will take a little while in the winter anyway giving you time to decide if you like it or not. Then you can paint it all if you want.

 

Hi Peter,

 

ok that makes sense. I can cross 'how to paint over' once done.. I dont think its straightforward tho, re. paint.

 

What would you do at the reveal areas? IE now Ive removed 3-4cm layer of old whatever mortar stuff, Ive now got this bad 1-2cm gap from stonework to jams. If I just repoint these reveals, gap isn't closed at all. Foam in.. then plaster or something?

 

Or should I be putting back a thick 3cm of render/ mortar whatever it is, back on these upright reveals, including underside of lintel stones?

 

 

[Roundtuit]

If the timber is secure, just point-up around the reveals to make it look neat.  If there's any movement in the timber or the gaps are particularly deep, a squirt of foam should help, and save you a bit of mortar.

[Onoff]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

What would you do at the reveal areas? IE now Ive removed 3-4cm layer of old whatever mortar stuff, Ive now got this bad 1-2cm gap from stonework to jams. If I just repoint these reveals, gap isn't closed at all. Foam in.. then plaster or something?

 

Guessing you might mean this?

 

 

Do you have some better pictures maybe showing a bit more, taken further back etc?

 

A vertical strip of black wood against the jam might work. You'd get that "clean" edge the jam side then the infilled "organic" look the other. 

[joe90]

I would just point it up and if there is a significant void fill with foam, it’s very old, keep it looking that way.

2 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

I would strip off all the old white paint in that area if not already done. Repair the stonework and leave to dry. Lime will take a little while in the winter anyway giving you time to decide if you like it or not. Then you can paint it all if you want.

 

+1, point it up and leave till summer when it’s lovely and dry then make you’re mind up about painting ?