Price guide

[Bitpipe]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But why do you want to open a window in winter to let the cold out?

 

Usually a sliding door to let the dog out. But we got a lab so I'm banking on it's heat output offsetting the heat loss. 

[joe90]

5 hours ago, FM2015 said:

In order to achieve payback in a reasonable time frame, for passive standard housing, you can never open a window.  That ruins the science experiment.

???, I think you need to do more reading/research.

[scottishjohn]

5 hours ago, Andy brown said:

with Nudurra you can pour a much higher level than with the woodcrete blocks and with £500 odd for a concrete pump depending on which one you need there could be a significant saving there.

that is simply just not true  from my investigations 

you can pour 2,5 m with isotex or durisol ==

never seen any poly that you can pour higher   and why would you want to pour more than one storey at a time  even if that was true?

 again common sense tells you that poly cannot stand as much hydraulic pressure as woodcrete 

 and something no one has mentioned is the fact that woodcrete blocks are porous before being filled --which allows some of  the water content of the concrete to escape into the blocks  and let the concrete go off and solidify faster -- poly does not . so stays wobbly longer --more chances of blow outs if mix is not perfect  and allows a wetter mix to be used in woodcrete so very litle if any vibrating to compact required,

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by scottishjohn

[FM2015]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

???, I think you need to do more reading/research.

I live in one and have built several and in my opinion, for that's all that it is, I can't reconcile the expense in the general marketplace.

 

If it's what you want, have it.  

 

The point that I was trying to make was that how a building is used is very significant and a well built, super efficient (on paper) building will not super efficient if it isn't fit for purpose.  That purpose is to serve the occupants.  As a terrible example, I'm sat here with a jumper on, the heating off and the patio door open.  .  Inside, the temperature is about 14 degrees.  None of the expensive stuff is working, I'm not cold so it was all a waste of money.  I didn't consider how I would use the property.  Someone else will be diametrically different.  I specced the house for them when I should have saved the money for other things like a better kitchen.  

 

I don't just build one offs so when dealing with problem of affordable homes and passive standards, a qualitative and quantitative assessment is made and the life cycle assessment suggests passive standards are really just there to mask over an industry that hasn't given two hoots for the environment.  The average person won't realise the benefits.  Once again, just my opinion and I'm happy to be convinced on another way.

 

 

 

 

[FM2015]

15 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

that is simply just not true  from my investigations 

you can pour 2,5 m with isotex or durisol ==

never seen any poly that you can pour higher   and why would you want to pour more than one storey at a time  even if that was true?

 again common sense tells you that poly cannot stand as much hydraulic pressure as woodcrete 

 and something no one has mentioned is the fact that woodcrete blocks are porous before being filled --which allows some of  the water content of the concrete to escape into the blocks  and let the concrete go off and solidify faster -- poly does not . so stays wobbly longer --more chances of blow outs if mix is not perfect  and allows a wetter mix to be used in woodcrete so very litle if any vibrating to compact required,

 

 

 

 

Regularly EPS pour walls at 3m and 5m is the  company record but that was professionally scary.  A gable end on a single storey build.  We were a bit greedy really, caution should have prevailed but the concrete was good and the build big enough that we felt it worth a go.  All went fine, pokered.  

 

Four main causes of blowouts: wet concrete, poor prep, rushing and poking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

24 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

and something no one has mentioned is the fact that woodcrete blocks are porous before being filled --which allows some of  the water content of the concrete to escape into the blocks  and let the concrete go off and solidify faster

Not how properly mixed concrete sets.

https://www.understanding-cement.com/hydration.html

[joe90]

16 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

If it's what you want, have it.  

I do

16 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

The average person won't realise the benefits. 

Oh I agree, but I would suggest those like me are the ones that build one do.

 

16 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

I can't reconcile the expense in the general marketplace.

So you are not building fir yourself but fir profit/job.? This is a self build forum which is full (mostly) of people like me who want to build their own house that works for them.

27 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

None of the expensive stuff is working, I'm not cold so it was all a waste of money.

You did not plan it right then

 

29 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

I didn't consider how I would use the property. 

My point  exactly.

 

[Haylingbilly]

22 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

Regularly EPS pour walls at 3m and 5m is the  company record but that was professionally scary.  A gable end on a single storey build.  We were a bit greedy really, caution should have prevailed but the concrete was good and the build big enough that we felt it worth a go.  All went fine, pokered.  

 

Four main causes of blowouts: wet concrete, poor prep, rushing and poking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On our build we poured over 5m (when I say we I mean the professionals did) - this was for the second floor and the apex up to the roof ridge - 6m I seem to recall. At the time (three years ago) the woodcrete people I was talking to were recommending 1.2m poor maximum height.

[scottishjohn]

I will stop replying to this ,as no one seems to using common sense  and only pushing personal agenda  . or looking for a job 

I am quoting makers recommended height --not what could be done at some risk   

If you can do a continous  pour of 5m with a wobbly poly wall then you can obviously do the same or more  with woodcrete  blocks 

 But I would take any bet you like that no poly block maker would warranty such a high stack of poly blocks --one pour job

 show me the maker and the  spec for max height of pour with no standing time  in between pours to solidify  bottom section somewhat before going to next pour

 

 yes you can build a 5m wall -but fill top to bottom in one go with no time for setting in between pours --  I do not believe it-hydraulic pressure would burst it for sure at that height

 

[scottishjohn]

11 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Not how properly mixed concrete sets.

https://www.understanding-cement.com/hydration.html

I do understand that but if it was wetter than it should be and water gathers on the top  -it can be absorbed into the woodcrete blocks--so not delaying how soon it starts to firm up  or next batch can be placed on top 

 

 

[Andy H]

On 17/09/2020 at 12:49, ZacP said:

So all of the ICF quotes are in. I've tried to standardise them as much as possible, but some have interesting notes which I'll detail below. Putting this up for others who might find it useful in deciding their supplier or working out costs, but also for any feedback or thoughts from the more experienced (that's all of you!).

 

Our build is approx 220sqm footprint and 260sqm of wall.

 

Durisol includes a 22% discount that they put on without negotiation 

Beco Walform have quoted for the 375 but say the 313 would save around £8K (inc vat) and only increase the U value to 0.165 (though the published value is 0.18) so much better value

Nudura say that a U value of 0.24 is plenty and anything more gets really expensive

Velox includes the steel that goes inside the wall.

 

I've included a price of concrete at £100+vat/cbm. This is a little on the high side, but it gives comparison.

 

None of the quotes include rebar (if required [except Velox]) - would have to wait for SE calcs. Can anyone suggest an amount (in £ or quantity) that they used on their build?

 

I know that we'll be able to reclaim the VAT on a new build but were costing things as a worst case scenario.

 

Labor to construct I'm guessing at 9 days for 1+1+me: 2 days build,  1 day pour (lower ground). 3 days build 1 day pour (upper ground). 1 day build, 1 day pour (gables, finishing off etc).

 

 

 

Hope that helps someone and thanks for your thoughts!

Has anybody had experience of Jackon? I saw them at the NSBRC Centre in Swindon. The product looke good to the eye and they also have an insulated slab product. Somehow in my gathering quotes I have forgotton to include them.

 

So far I have found the best price from Build Better Homes who supply Logix ICF forms. They are also the suppliers of Isoquick insulated slabs.

[scottishjohn]

4 minutes ago, Andy H said:

Has anybody had experience of Jackon? I saw them at the NSBRC Centre in Swindon. The product looke good to the eye and they also have an insulated slab product. Somehow in my gathering quotes I have forgotton to include them.

 

So far I have found the best price from Build Better Homes who supply Logix ICF forms. They are also the suppliers of Isoquick insulated slabs.

have you sent all these suppliers your plans for them to quote ? ?

 if not I doubt you will get a true comparison  like for like 

 is bracing hire cost for a fixed period --if so how long 

when I looked at this there was a hire cost +delivery and collection of it as well -- that added another £900

 

all I am saying ask so you know the full price up front  no comment on your choice of system -- they all work 

 

 

[Andy H]

35 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I will stop replying to this ,as no one seems to using common sense  and only pushing personal agenda

I am finding your comments helpful so would encourage you to continue.

[Andy H]

3 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

have you sent all these suppliers your plans for them to quote ? ?

 if not I doubt you will get a true comparison  like for like 

 is bracing hire cost for a fixed period --if so how long 

when I looked at this there was a hire cost +delivery and collection of it as well -- that added another £900

 

all I am saying ask so you know the full price up front  no comment on your choice of system -- they all work 

 

 

I haven't sent architectural drawings but hand drawings on graph paper. At this point I haven't finalised the building dimensions and door and window openings though I am sufficiently close for getting indicative figures. I dont want to get an architect or structural engineer involved until I have concluded in my own mind what I intend to do as I could end up with multiple drawings, calculations and professional fees. I have been pretty thorough on making them comparable for the items you have listed. There can be quite a variation, particularrly in prop costs and delivery.

 

The one thing I havent got a fix on is whether there is much difference between the eps and woodcrete in terms of rebar needed.

[Andy H]

On 01/02/2021 at 20:21, bradders3109 said:

Thermohouse haven't even bothered to come back to me with a quote which is concerning.  If they can't be bothered quoting for the business what will they be like if/when I need suppport.

I found them helpful but expensive on a like for like basis when you factor in distribution cost from Poland, so they havent made my short list

[scottishjohn]

15 minutes ago, Andy H said:

The one thing I havent got a fix on is whether there is much difference between the eps and woodcrete in terms of rebar needed.

AS I said before take nothing as gospel on here including from me  --ask the block supplier 

 but i can tell that the amount of bracing for a woodcrete build should be very minimal if built correctly   

 rebar vurtually none required for uk -- only around opening to make lintels in situ -- nmo down side to dropping vertical ones as you pour -if you worried 

but this is where i say you need to use the blockc suppler design  team-- so you don,t over spec -should do way with SE costs + planning will find it hard to argue against what they spec 

 

look at ISOTEX videos and you will next to none    a few sheets of OSB maybe 

are  you self build or using a  contractor  

Edited February 4, 2021 by scottishjohn

[Andy H]

On 17/09/2020 at 14:57, ZacP said:

And yes, I completely forgot about AMVIC! **scuttles off to find an email contact to send plans to**

Did you get a quote from AMVIC?

[Andy H]

On 26/01/2021 at 13:36, scottishjohn said:

why would you want to??

 

please tell me why you think this is a good idea over using pre insulated woodcrete  blocks

I suspect it would work out cheaper if you are doing the job yourself and not factoring in a cost for your own labour.

 

In addition if I have understood the properties of woodcrete correctly, it is more thermally conductive than EPS and so the woodcrete form itself acts as a themal bridge albeit at a very low level,  as the woodcrete runs the whole way through the block.

[FM2015]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

I will stop replying to this ,as no one seems to using common sense  and only pushing personal agenda  . or looking for a job 

I am quoting makers recommended height --not what could be done at some risk   

If you can do a continous  pour of 5m with a wobbly poly wall then you can obviously do the same or more  with woodcrete  blocks 

 But I would take any bet you like that no poly block maker would warranty such a high stack of poly blocks --one pour job

 show me the maker and the  spec for max height of pour with no standing time  in between pours to solidify  bottom section somewhat before going to next pour

 

 yes you can build a 5m wall -but fill top to bottom in one go with no time for setting in between pours --  I do not believe it-hydraulic pressure would burst it for sure at that height

 

Sorry John.  I didn't mean to offend.  

 

To be clear on our process, we fill 1m and then move on around the building.  Ideally and depending on concrete, we leave an hour before we put another metre in the same place and so on.  In a gable, that last metre could be going on top of concrete that's been in place of 6hrs.

From a budget perspective, doing this can save labour and is a more economical use of the pump.  If the building is below a certain linear meterage, then it won't be possible, above, then it might.  Case by case judgement based on experience.  

 

Pretty sure most ICF suppliers don't warranty the installers.  We all stretch things and it's no different from using a wood saw to cut plastic pipe.

Your previous comments about reinventing the wheel are so apt here.  I work with ICF every day and am forever finding or seeing different ways to achieve the same.  The reason for this is no standardised rule book and necessity becomes the mother of invention.  Forum like this one pools that knowledge be it from a self build experience or a professional experience.  The individual using the information is still the critical factor.

 

 

[scottishjohn]

12 minutes ago, Andy H said:

I suspect it would work out cheaper if you are doing the job yourself and not factoring in a cost for your own labour.

 

In addition if I have understood the properties of woodcrete correctly, it is more thermally conductive than EPS and so the woodcrete form itself acts as a themal bridge albeit at a very low level,  as the woodcrete runs the whole way through the block.

 small amount --but I,m of the opinion that when you fill with concrete it will invade the block as it is pourous ,so wll be a very small amount --which is why to get true thermal value of the wall you must do a calc of the TOTAL wall construction from inside to outside -not just the headline figure of the bare block 

I f want to know the real value you going have to to real calculations -- so again speak to suppliers and get proper calcs of your intended wall construction  to get real world values

I answered this befor

 in canada where its very cold they often use insulated durisol and then wrap another 50mm of sheet around outside of wall to get a passiv spec wall 

I am guessing if it was cheaper they would have just wrapped a non insulated block in even more layers 

so there must be an issue of how much you can hang on outside and still fix it securely 

 but if not going for passiv and in this country it will work --but not sure  if it would be any cheaper --certainly non insulated blocks would be cheaper 

 you also have answered my previous question --you are not going to use a contractor 

 then even more reason to use woodcrete -- no worries about stop start -- -will be happy to sit outside for a very long time only partially built

 check the internet lots of them built without even using a pump in Russia etc  -- just a funnel made to fit wall top and then hand mix it all -- if you really want to be DIY just drop short bits of rebar in when ever you are going to stop so it has something to bond too on next pour .- like huge building blocks cast in situ

you decide what is most important your time or money 

 If you are lucky you may  have a concrete local that will sell you dry mix cheap -and get a trail;er load at a time -and shovel into your mixer and add water

 round here i can get it that way for £35 a CUM -if i go get it --25miles

 so many ways to do it -- 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by scottishjohn

[Andy H]

39 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

AS I said before take nothing as gospel on here including from me  --ask the block supplier 

 but i can tell that the amount of bracing for a woodcrete build should be very minimal if built correctly   

 rebar vurtually none required for uk -- only around opening to make lintels in situ -- nmo down side to dropping vertical ones as you pour -if you worried 

but this is where i say you need to use the blockc suppler design  team-- so you don,t over spec -should do way with SE costs + planning will find it hard to argue against what they spec 

 

look at ISOTEX videos and you will next to none    a few sheets of OSB maybe 

are  you self build or using a  contractor  

I am going to self build and this is my first job. My intention is to wait for the lockdown to end and get onto one of the courses run by my chosen supplier. I would supplement this with 2 or 3 visits by the supplier at key points, including attendance for concrete pouring to act as further training / quality control.

 

I am building a single storey structure with walls 3.25m high, 0.75m below ground and and 2.5m above ground with all of the window and door openings on one wall.

 

All of the suppliers I have spoken to seem to think a single poor would be fine even though their technical specs indicate otherwise. I guess the technical specs are being conservative but I think I will follow the technical guides and go with 2 pours, the first being with waterproof concrete for the below ground wall.

 

I am considering the use of woodcrete (but am not yet decided) because of the discussed lack of a need for bracing. I have noted the discussion on this earlier in the thread and would visit a build in progress to see the level of bracing required.

 

My other reason for considering woodcrete is it introduces the possibility of not needing internal or external cladding. I am being sent a sample to which I could try sanding, varnishing or painting to see if it is attractive (to my eyes!)

 

I noted in an earlier comment the tolerance of the woodcrete blocks not being good enough for providing smooth walls. I will need to investigate this.

 

Kind regards

 

Andy

[Russell griffiths]

Woodcrete blocks as the finish inside. 

Sorry @Andy H that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard this year. 

If you accidentally fall against it you will be going to A+E for a skin graft. 

 

I cannot see why you would use waterproof concrete in woodcrete either, the block structure is such that the concrete ISN'T a continuous pour of concrete, it is a lattice work of concrete full of voids and gaps every time a block starts or stops. 

[jack]

3 hours ago, Andy H said:

My other reason for considering woodcrete is it introduces the possibility of not needing internal or external cladding. I am being sent a sample to which I could try sanding, varnishing or painting to see if it is attractive (to my eyes!)

 

If I ever build another house, I'd consider looking into some form of rough plastering, possibly using lime. I think a slightly imperfect finish looks great (better than the nearly-but-not-quite perfect a lot of plasterers will achieve), and unlike "proper" plastering is something you can learn to DIY reasonably easily. Materials are cheap too.

 

This would potentially work well with woodcrete, although you'd need to think about how you'd run services.

[Andy H]

6 minutes ago, jack said:

 

If I ever build another house, I'd consider looking into some form of rough plastering, possibly using lime. I think a slightly imperfect finish looks great (better than the nearly-but-not-quite perfect a lot of plasterers will achieve), and unlike "proper" plastering is something you can learn to DIY reasonably easily. Materials are cheap too.

 

This would potentially work well with woodcrete, although you'd need to think about how you'd run services.

Thanks Jack I'll do a search on "rough plastering". On the running services I was thinking about having them on the wall within some protective conduit if I went for the woodcrete. I am quite attracted to the idea of a more industrial look - I haven't progressed the thinking to find out if it fits within building regulations yet. I am still on the foundations, walls and roof investigation phase!

[jack]

25 minutes ago, Andy H said:

Thanks Jack I'll do a search on "rough plastering". 

 

I don't actually know whether that's the right term. I just mean trowelling on some sort of plastering product (could be lime, clay, cement-based, whatever) and flattening it as best you can while leaving some texture. A house I rented many years ago have this sort of finish over blockwork and I quite liked the effect. Cheap and easy to experiment with, at least.