ASHP/Plumbing Quote Help Please

[canalsiderenovation]

Hi

 

We are meeting with our plumber next week to go through things. We had a provisional quote a few months ago, prior to any building starting so we may need to make some tweaks now.

 

This is going down the RHI route for our ASHP and all underfloor heating throughout the bungalow and included all plumbing of three bathrooms too (actual sanitaryware excluded as we have purchased this).

 

I'd be grateful if I could get some opinions on this in prep for the meeting next week.

 

Thanks

Plumbing 1.pdf plumbing 2.pdf

[Bozza]

Make sure it’s metered and Certificated/documented to allow RHI payments, something I myself had to confirm in writing just this week from my installer.

[Benjseb]

We paid about £11k for a 14kW Ecodan with a 250l cyclinder, fitted. 
 

We didn’t need any additional plumbing so hard to compare the labour but the MCS spec and parts look compatible to our quote. 
 

The main thing with ASHP is ensuring you’re happy with the heat loss calc, so if it’s a new building it should be fairly easy.  Mitsubishi Ecodans are very good units. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Benjseb

[ProDave]

So you have been quoted £22K and will get back £10K in RHI payments so a net cost of £12K

 

You can buy the ASHP and cylinder for £4914 plus VAT = £5896

 

Is the UFH and install really going to cost £6K if you just get an ordinary plumber to fit it?  (hint mine did not)

 

I am just saying before you sign up to an MCS / RHI scheme, check the alternatives.

 

If you can cost the install and UFH separately with a non MCS plumber and it comes at at no more than £6K then there is no point in the RHI scheme.

[canalsiderenovation]

50 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So you have been quoted £22K and will get back £10K in RHI payments so a net cost of £12K

 

You can buy the ASHP and cylinder for £4914 plus VAT = £5896

 

Is the UFH and install really going to cost £6K if you just get an ordinary plumber to fit it?  (hint mine did not)

 

I am just saying before you sign up to an MCS / RHI scheme, check the alternatives.

 

If you can cost the install and UFH separately with a non MCS plumber and it comes at at no more than £6K then there is no point in the RHI scheme.

 

Thanks I'll get the plumber to also price not going through the RHI scheme and see what the difference is. 

[canalsiderenovation]

1 hour ago, Bozza said:

Make sure it’s metered and Certificated/documented to allow RHI payments, something I myself had to confirm in writing just this week from my installer.

 

Yes the plumber uses a company called Alto energy to do the certification and documentation.

[canalsiderenovation]

1 hour ago, Benjseb said:

We paid about £11k for a 14kW Ecodan with a 250l cyclinder, fitted. 
 

We didn’t need any additional plumbing so hard to compare the labour but the MCS spec and parts look compatible to our quote. 
 

The main thing with ASHP is ensuring you’re happy with the heat loss calc, so if it’s a new building it should be fairly easy.  Mitsubishi Ecodans are very good units. 

 

There is a lot of underfloor heating with it being a bungalow. Insulation is one area we have been obsessing over so the existing floors especially have all been excavated to allow for insulation in floors and then also the external wall insulation too. 

[joe90]

But your £22k includes plumbing and waste for bathrooms etc? So this could be separated no?

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

But your £22k includes plumbing and waste for bathrooms etc? So this could be separated no?

Ah yes, make sure you are comparing apples with apples.

[canalsiderenovation]

49 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Ah yes, make sure you are comparing apples with apples.

 

Yes the plumber is the same guy quoting for all the ASHP stuff and underfloor heating and plumbing for three bathrooms.

 

He then works with Alto Energy who do all the certification etc for the RHI side of things.

 

We do need to discuss in roof solar and get pricing and make a decision on this as we were keen to use this for own own electricity and diversion to immersion for hot water so if anyone has any suggestions on this for me to raise with the plumber/electrician that would be great.

[Alexphd1]

Was he wearing a mask ? 

[Alexphd1]

Sorry for the smart ass comment but I always brick myself when I see quotes like that. 

Have you vetted this plumber ie spoke to previous customers. I am a bit weary of paying up front for material, remember he will be buying material on a trade account 30 days credit. 

What square m2 is the ufh area, this may give us a better idea if a realistic cost. 

As long as it's a new build there shouldn't be vat mentioned.

I understand it's going to end up costing you £8k but you will have less cashflow during the build being £18k out of pocket very early on. Only you will know if this is an issue

We have the option of changing to a RHI system at the end from a DIY install, getting a approved buisness to fit only the ashp unit for the rhi. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Alexphd1

[canalsiderenovation]

8 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

Sorry for the smart ass comment but I always get brick myself when I see quotes like that. 

Have you vetted this plumber ie spoke to previous customers. I am a bit weary of paying up front for material, remember he will be buying material on a trade account 30 days credit. 

What square m2 is the ufh area, this may give us a better idea if a realistic cost. 

As long as it's a new build there shouldn't be vat mentioned.

I understand it's going to end up costing you £8k but you will have less cashflow during the build being £18k out of pocket very early on. Only you will know if this is an issue

We have the option of changing to a RHI system at the end from a DIY install, getting a approved buisness to fit only the ashp unit for the rhi. 

 

We have had a three prices, the one from NU heat was around the same price and that was without the bathrooms and installation! Yes this plumber comes highly recommended, not just from our builder but a couple of other people too. We don't have to go down the RHI route and I will pose this question when we speak next week.

 

Floor area is around 170m2 as I recall, I can't find the exact m2 at the moment.

[ProDave]

If you want to answer the RHI question, separate the quotes to general plumbing, and heating system (with or without RHI) on separate quoted.

 

My gut feeling is there is too much to give a fixed quote.  I know most people don't like it, but I feel certain you would end up with a better finished price on a day rate.  I always maintain a fixed quote has to allow for the worst case of everything which may not happen.

[Alexphd1]

I agree with prodave but all depends on finding decent tradesmen.

How much bathrooms and is there a utility sink?  

170m2 is maybe ufh 800m of pipe (very rough est and loops depends on zones). Emmeti is a decent brand I am 99% sure they used (8 years ago) rebranded uponor mlcp pipe (it was my favorite ugh pipe) 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Alexphd1

[canalsiderenovation]

15 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

I agree with prodave but all depends on finding decent tradesmen.

How much bathrooms and is there a utility sink?  

170m2 is maybe ufh 800m of pipe (very rough est and loops depends on zones). Emmeti is a decent brand I am 99% sure they used (8 years ago) rebranded uponor mlcp pipe (it was my favorite ugh pipe) 

 

Three bathrooms, two with shower, toilet and sink, one with the addition of a bath. One kitchen sink one utility sink.

 

[canalsiderenovation]

Edited August 15, 2020 by canalsiderenovation

[canalsiderenovation]

Located my quotes from NU heat. Excluding Vat and installation, product only. The UFH was for a bit extra M2 but we have now done away with an extra room we had planned. We aren't going with Nu heat, this was a quote we had following seeing them at a home show.

[Alexphd1]

That's a fair bit of plumbing alone, material he is providing wont add to much but time will add up. Also keep eye on small details as thickness of insulation esp if outside heated envelope of house. What about a tap in the garage? Try and cut out expensive 'extras' just now.

[Nickfromwales]

I think the price they've given you is very fair for the scope of works included, and you have them on a recommendation.

I would also allow a consideration for the fact you'll have only one company to deal with for all these works, so less down time repeating yourself and looking for other trades to work with the core MCS company. There is a lot of inherent value with this quote, and with them fitting the bathrooms too ( plumbing wise ) I think you'd be hard done by to find a cheaper ( value for money ) option. Why make life so much harder for yourself?

As  far as MCS and RHI are concerned, I genuinely think you'd need your head read if you strayed away from that. Your house will be to a good standard, but nowhere near passive, and therefore the RHI is a very attractive benefit for you IMHO.

Oh, and their quote is £18k not £22k as the rest is VAT.

Add the value of a recommended company, and then the turnkey solution they're offering, and this quote seems a good deal to me. Are they 'cheap', maybe not, but do you want cheap or do you want value for money?

[Redoctober]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

I think the price they've given you is very fair for the scope of works included, and you have them on a recommendation.

I would also allow a consideration for the fact you'll have only one company to deal with for all these works, so less down time repeating yourself and looking for other trades to work with the core MCS company. There is a lot of inherent value with this quote, and with them fitting the bathrooms too ( plumbing wise ) I think you'd be hard done by to find a cheaper ( value for money ) option. Why make life so much harder for yourself?

As  far as MCS and RHI are concerned, I genuinely think you'd need your head read if you strayed away from that. Your house will be to a good standard, but nowhere near passive, and therefore the RHI is a very attractive benefit for you IMHO.

Oh, and their quote is £18k not £22k as the rest is VAT.

Add the value of a recommended company, and then the turnkey solution they're offering, and this quote seems a good deal to me. Are they 'cheap', maybe not, but do you want cheap or do you want value for money?

 

Nail. Head 

[canalsiderenovation]

2 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

 

Nail. Head 

 

Thanks @Redoctober and @Nickfromwalesand others

 

I will raise questions this week but as you say our concern is finding someone to that not only is reasonable on price but is reliable and will do a good job. Over 15 years ago now I had a loft conversion on my first home. I was young, naive and it was a disaster. Thank god I had studied law and worked in criminal justice and had some contacts because I sued the builder and won and did get compensation but it was a long, messy and stressful battle whilst the house work never actually got finished (relationship ended). 

 

We are looking to save money where we can but likewise I've learnt sometimes saving money on some things can cost later.

 

I'm interested in views on the spec itself and if there is anything I should be asking. I think the tank needs to be a bit bigger, don't want hot water running out!

[canalsiderenovation]

1 hour ago, Alexphd1 said:

That's a fair bit of plumbing alone, material he is providing wont add to much but time will add up. Also keep eye on small details as thickness of insulation esp if outside heated envelope of house. What about a tap in the garage? Try and cut out expensive 'extras' just now.

 

Garage won't be built yet, but we do want a tap on side of house. We have a very large garden and as the house is almost in the middle the OH wants one of those retractable hose thingys for watering the plants and if it was on the garage it would be too far away.

[Redoctober]

10 hours ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

Thanks @Redoctober and @Nickfromwalesand others

 

We are looking to save money where we can but likewise I've learnt sometimes saving money on some things can cost later.

 

I'm interested in views on the spec itself and if there is anything I should be asking. I think the tank needs to be a bit bigger, don't want hot water running out!

 

No one wants to spend more money than they have to but as you say, there are somethings that are worth investing in over others. For us, the whole UFH and DHW system was an area we wanted to "invest" in, in order to minimise the risks of things going wrong or being installed incorrectly etc and to have peace of mind. That comes at a price sadly.

 

As for the size of your cylinder, you make a good point and one to be mindful off. That said, how many people will be occupying the property on a regular basis? We have a 170 litre tank and for the two of us that is more than adequate. When quests arrive, we just "manage" shower times and have never been without hot water. 

[PeterW]

11 hours ago, canalsiderenovation said:

I think the tank needs to be a bit bigger, don't want hot water running out!

 

... and ... 

 

32 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

We have a 170 litre tank and for the two of us that is more than adequate

For an ASHP system, minimum spec regardless I go for is 300 litre and then usually 400 litre if it will fit. The tank recovery time of an ASHP driven UVC is more than double that of a gas or oil boiler so I would just go with a bigger tank and insulate the tank cupboard and pipework to reduce losses.