Single Bottle LPG Gas Hob Connection

[TerryE]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Should that mains lead be resting/rubbing against a gas pipe?

 

Dunno, but it is double shielded.  I'll unplug it and take around the other side. It's only driving the hob sparker.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, TerryE said:

 

Dunno, but it is double shielded.  I'll unplug it and take around the other side. It's only driving the hob sparker.

Check the fuse size while you are at it.

[ProDave]

23 minutes ago, TerryE said:

Dave, in a word: yes.  I got his name and details off the GasSafe online database.  This is one where I didn't even bother to research "how it's done" as I was paying someone to do it the correct way.  Jan explained what we were doing to the local dealer and ordered the regulator and bottle from them on their advice.  The gas (and LPG) registered engineer, fitted it and provided us with the certificate without comment.

 

So if you think that the Building inspector would have a problem with this installation, then it would be really helpful us if you could be more specific or at least point us to where you can find these details.  AFAIK, they aren't readily accessible to the general house builder, because they want you to use a certified professional to do the work.
 

I see that there are potentially two sepearate issues:

• Compliance and certification;
• Is the implementation correctly scaled?

We've got a backup two-ring gas hob connected to an outside Propane cylinder, not our central heating.  Naively, I would think that this apporach is scaled for this; to me, the issue is: does it comply?

 

The inside plumbing looks fine to me. It's the outside bit that bothers me. Just stretching a hose over a bit of 10mm pipe and putting a jubilee clip on. To start with there is a special type of clamp for a hose, not a jubilee clip, and second he should have used a hose nipple fitting.

 

Secondly I am pretty sure you have to provide a fitting into which you can screw a pressure gauge to perform a leakage or "drop" test to ensure none of the pipework or joints are leaking. The absence of that suggests he  has done no proper leak test.

 

The crazy thing is BC will accept the bit of paper and not even look at it, but if I had done that, they would be all over it with a rash.
 

[TerryE]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Check the fuse size while you are at it.

 

IIRC, its one of those mould plug jobs that came with the cooker.

[SteamyTea]

You should be able to change the fuse.  Not sure of the rating, but would have thought that 2A would do it.

[TerryE]

54 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The inside plumbing looks fine to me. It's the outside bit that bothers me. Just stretching a hose over a bit of 10mm pipe and putting a jubilee clip on. To start with there is a special type of clamp for a hose, not a jubilee clip, and second he should have used a hose nipple fitting.

 

Secondly I am pretty sure you have to provide a fitting into which you can screw a pressure gauge to perform a leakage or "drop" test to ensure none of the pipework or joints are leaking. The absence of that suggests he  has done no proper leak test.

 

Taking the second point first; 30 years ago when I last did any gas plumbing I just stuck a monometer (a.k.a. a loop of clear pipe with some red coloured water in it) on the end of the pipe and put a pressure of ~1ft in it (or 20 mBar in new money) and left if for 15 mins to see if I'd lost any pressure.   In this case I didn't stand over him whilst he worked, so I didn't see him do the test it, but he did tick the box to say that he'd done it, and he did have a test point to test the copper pipework and the oven for leaks -- the end of the pipe that comes out of the wall.

 

Now that you mention it, I agree with your point about the hose tail. I could get one and the BSP to 15mm adapter from JTM for just over a fiver, but I can't legally fit it, can I?

 

PS: as per Dave's comment below, what does @Nickfromwales, the Lord High Executioner say.?

Edited February 20, 2017 by TerryE
To poke Nick at Dave's suggestion

[ProDave]

Let's see what Nick says when he sees this?
 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

 

The inside plumbing looks fine to me. It's the outside bit that bothers me. Just stretching a hose over a bit of 10mm pipe and putting a jubilee clip on. To start with there is a special type of clamp for a hose, not a jubilee clip, and second he should have used a hose nipple fitting.

 

Secondly I am pretty sure you have to provide a fitting into which you can screw a pressure gauge to perform a leakage or "drop" test to ensure none of the pipework or joints are leaking. The absence of that suggests he  has done no proper leak test.

 

The crazy thing is BC will accept the bit of paper and not even look at it, but if I had done that, they would be all over it with a rash.
 

 

From what I can remember (bearing in mind that I'm going back to 1993 here......) the external LPG connection we installed and had signed off,  was a manual changeover valve, fed by a fixed copper pipe, bolted to an external wall, and the valve head had the the standard gas screw-in port for the manometer for leak testing, the same as on every mains gas meter.  I'm damned certain that flexible pipes with jubilee clips are not only non-compliant with the regs, but downright bloody dangerous.  I went through all this with a boat years ago, getting the gas installation signed off to get a Thames licence, and had to replace a couple of (necessary on a boat) flexible hoses with ones with proper crimped fittings and the appropriate certification (some rubber hoses don't like LPG, apparently).  Given that properly made-off crimped flexible hoses are relatively cheap and available from just about every LPG appliance or system supplier, and given the hazards associated with gas, I'd be inclined to get these double-checked.

[ProDave]

Mine will be an automatic changeover regulator and two bottles.  I will have to check if the pressure test point is built into the changeover reg or if that is a separate fitting.  From the changeover regulator, two HIGH pressure hoses connect to two gas bottles, as Jeremy says, usually bought pre made with crimped connections.

 

The reason for an auto changeover, is a bottle of gas lasts a very long time feeding just a hob, well over a year, and I don't want to be going out in the night in the middle of winter to change it when the gas just runs out.

I also seem to recall with an LPG installation, there is a requirement for a quarter turn gas shut off valve outside to turn the gas off in an emergency. That seems to be missing from Terry's install.

 

Altogether, not much of a gas man?

 

[TerryE]

In our case if the gas runs out in the middle of the night, we'll just use the induction hob until I get around to changing it, so this isn't relevant to us.

 

I am at a total loss as to why you need high pressure hose for ~20 mbar pressure.   In the event that the regulator failed catastrophically then the last thing that I'd want is one of my gas burners going up to 1 bar say and blasting a gas flame 20 ft into the kitchen.  Far better that the pipe outside fails.

 

The thing about a boat is that it has this gas-tight LPG collector called a hull, and gas leaks in there are a severe safety issue.  Maybe we'll have to get Jeremy and Dave hooked up with our local LPG dealer who provided the hose and fittings.

 

As I said guys, can anyone actually point us to where the regulations on this are in writing and publicly accessible, rather than behind some logon wall only accessible to Gas engineers?

 

 

[Onoff]

11 minutes ago, TerryE said:

In our case if the gas runs out in the middle of the night, we'll just use the induction hob until I get around to changing it, so this isn't relevant to us.

 

I am at a total loss as to why you need high pressure hose for ~20 mbar pressure.   In the event that the regulator failed catastrophically then the last thing that I'd want is one of my gas burners going up to 1 bar say and blasting a gas flame 20 ft into the kitchen.  Far better that the pipe outside fails.

 

The thing about a boat is that it has this gas-tight LPG collector called a hull, and gas leaks in there are a severe safety issue.  Maybe we'll have to get Jeremy and Dave hooked up with our local LPG dealer who provided the hose and fittings.

 

As I said guys, can anyone actually point us to where the regulations on this are in writing and publicly accessible, rather than behind some logon wall only accessible to Gas engineers?

 

 

This help?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.calor.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/PDF/using-hoses-and-tubing-250913.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi5rPHjuZ_SAhXEPBQKHarJBkIQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNFY-CWRuHpLD5eto-tiSFo9IXeyVA

 

Gas scares me btw! 

[ProDave]

Terry, the High pressure hose is only for a changeover regulator, where the hose operates at full cylinder pressure.

 

My "fault" count stands at 5:

 

No 1/4 turn shut off isolator.

No pressure test point (so probably no pressure test done?)

Wrong fitting used to connect hose to pipe

Wrong clamps at both ends of the hose

No chain securing the cylinder from tipping or being pulled over.
 

[TerryE]

Clive's link only describes the BS for flexible connectors and the only one which seems to apply to this is BS3212: 1991 Type 1.  Dave your list is unreferenced, and as you say; you aren't a gas engineer.  Many of your points might be valid, but how can I confirm this?   I've tried doing searches on Google and gone down maybe twenty pages of results, all either not relevant or behind logon walls.  Going back to the BRegs,

• Part J sections 5.19 and 5.20 apply and once we've added a securing chain as you suggest we comply with these.  And in fact our gas engineer did tell us that we would need to fit one before the building inspection.
• Part J section 3.1 also says that all gas works must be a carried out by and certified by a competent person, and this is effectively defined by the person being current with the appropriate certificates and being on the GasSafe register.  We also comply with this, though I note Dave's view about the actual competence of my gas engineer.   The installation also has to be carried out in compliance with the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations.
• I did find the referenced HSE document: Approved Code of Practice and guidance Safe installation and use of gas systems and appliances, Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 which discusses qualified persons, correct installation, testing, etc., but nowhere does it state that a separate test point is mandatory, for example.  And the regulation itself only states that testing must be carried out.
• I also found a copy of the newer draft 2013 fourth edition does stipulate in guidance 9(1) "Whenever a new gas supply is made available for use in premises, an emergency control should also be provided".  And 9(2) states "The emergency control can operate by a key, lever or hand-wheel which should be securely attached to the operating spindle".  [My italics].  Yes it does go on to say that if a  key or lever is used then it should be a quarter turn, but in the case of a single cylinder surely the hand wheel on the cylinder itself complies with this requirement. I agree that it doesn't in the case of a two cylinder with automated change-over setup, but as I said, we only have a single cylinder.

There is a material difference between views of best practice, compliance and non-compliance.  I will be more than happy to get the engineer back to do remedial work where we are in fact non-compliant.  But interpretations on best practice are quite another issue.  As I said the equipment was supplied by one of the main LPG suppliers locally and installed by a qualified engineer.  It meets our needs and without firm references, I am not sure what I can go back to him with. I am not the expert here.

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

Terry, the High pressure hose is only for a changeover regulator, where the hose operates at full cylinder pressure.

 

My "fault" count stands at 5:

 

No 1/4 turn shut off isolator.

No pressure test point (so probably no pressure test done?)

Wrong fitting used to connect hose to pipe

Wrong clamps at both ends of the hose

No chain securing the cylinder from tipping or being pulled over.
 

Daves right. 

I just saw this and scrolled back through to the pics. Not great. 

Internal plumbing seems fine, but outside is clearly below standard. 

As far as regs, the PROPER domestic valve would have the isolation. It would also have the right fitting to go to copper, thus negating the jubilee clip 'connection'. 

I don't even like to see that when using my BBQ ?. 

A stability chain around the neck / upper section of the bottle is a no-brainer, and as said, a requirement. Again, not great. 

 

Not sure who gets this bullet, but when the pipe comes out of the wall and turns sideways, it needs more than one clip to stop any stress getting to the soldered bend. Should any weight or accidental force be applied to the end of the copper pipe the single clip would form a pivot point and transmit the force to the bend. 

[Nickfromwales]

37 minutes ago, TerryE said:

, I am not sure what I can go back to him with. I am not the expert here

Ok, terry, I can see your frustration. BUT your fitters horse and cart are very much arse backwards. 

You cannot make a gas installation live and walk away with a list of essential items not done. End of chat.

Saying that you'll need to fit chains at "some stage in the future" when you go for a completion cert is total and utter bollocks. HE MUST LEAVE THAT INSTALLATION SAFE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. He has NOT done that. You cannot make a gas installation live and set it to work unless it's 100% complete, and 100% compliant. 

Fwiw, I think you should shut it off, disconnect the bottle and get matey boy back to do the chains. ( and no, it's not your job to do it after he facks off with your £100, it's HIS job to do on the day he commissions the gas burning appliance. He should have charged you the extra and done it. Simple. )

Regarding the test point. Is there one, or is there not? The whole point of a dedicated test nipple is that you COMPLETE the installation and can test WITHOUT further interruption to the supply or pipework. E.g. Testing, by removing the gas feed to get an open end to fit his manometer too, means he had to re-make that connection AFTER testing. That's wrong. You should test the full installation with all equipment and controls connected, and you should be able to do so WITHOUT having to reconnect a part / joint as how do you know that's sound? Yes, you can leak spray it, like you would the test nipple on a domestic meter, but that's on a fitting designed and accepted as an appropriate means to do so. 

 

This does stink of 5 minute hero TBH, but it's a fact that it shouldn't be on right now without the stability chains. 

[TerryE]

43 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

As far as regs, the PROPER domestic valve would have the isolation.

 

Nick as I said this isn't what the regs actually say, and also the IGEM (the Institute of Gas Engineers and Managers) also quite clearly states in its Technical Guidance on The LPG System that:

 

Quote

Gas Emergency Control

A suitably labelled gas emergency control valve (ECV) is required adjacent to where the gas supply enters the property. With LPG, the ECV is often located outside the property in a specially designed compartment that may also contain the gas meter and / or regulator.

 

For a cylinder installation, where two or more cylinders are connected together through an automatic changeover valve (ACV), the ECV will be positioned at a point downstream of the ACV.

 

For a single cylinder installation, the outlet valve of the cylinder also acts as an ECV.

 

[My italics] So who do I believe: you and Dave,  or the professional body responsible for the guidelines?   However I've already discussed the safety fastener and maybe I should have declined to show the photo before this was fitted.  Ditto using the correct spigot on the gaps pipe and the wisdom of a second anchor near the end of the pipe.  I can ask the guy to come back and do this extra work, but I can't criticise him for not fitting an extra valve at the wall if his own standards authority says that it's not necessary.  Can I?

 

XXX.  Confused from Northampton.

[Nickfromwales]

@TerryE we crossed. Read my last  

[Nickfromwales]

PS I'm happy about the ECV btw, just good practice would have seen a secondary ECV and a test nipple immediately afterwards. 

Theres gas fitters, and there's gas fitters. 

[Steptoe]

@Nickfromwales

I feel your pain

There are electricians and there are installers,,,,  

and, you always have the ,

I know more than the professionals brigade too.

 

[TerryE]

This test point issue does confuse me a little.  I have a single pipe wending from a gas hob through a wall to a spigot where a gas bottle goes.  The installer tests the pipe by sticking his pressure tester on the spigot end and thus tests the bits inside the house structure that are a safety issue, and then sticks the Propane flexible pipe on and uses his funny solution to look for leaks in the open air.

 

Or he adds a tee and a test point, and does the test there?  But how does he know that the test point isn't itself leaking when he closes it? -- Ah add another test point to test the test point, and before we know it (to misquote Terry Pratchett) we're test points all the way down.

 

What I am really saying is that a test point makes sense to me in a conventional gas installation where you have one or more appliances permanently connected to a static supply or even an external static LPG tank and the engineer would be unable without it to test the integrity of the internal pipework for leaks.  In this case we have a single pipe running through a wall with a gas hob on one end and a spigot for a gas cylinder on the other. 

[Steptoe]

How does he test the integrity of the flexible pipe to the cylinder,?

[Jeremy Harris]

Terry, I've dug out an old photo of our place in Scotland (sadly a real photo, rather than a digital one, and my old scanner won't work with this machine................). 

 

Looking at it, we have regulators on the bottles, connected via braided hoses to a three-way valve (I remember it being two way, but in the photo it has a centre off position).  The bottles are secured to the wall with hinged, galvanised steel hoops (with "Calor" labels on, so it looks like the installer supplied and fitted them).  The valve is a pretty big affair, with a flange that's screwed to the wall.  It has a screw on it that looks just like the one on our gas meter, so I'm certain that's the manometer leak test point. From the position of the leak test screw, it looks like it could be used to test just the house side (with the valve in the centre off position), and the house side to each cylinder in turn (with the cylinder valves off).

 

The rigid pipe runs down the wall and then into the house.  It's hard to see the detail because it's a photo I took of the whole back of the house, at the time we bought it in 1993, and the bottles are tucked away in the corner, with a garden fence behind them.

 

I know that all I did was fit the hob to the kitchen worktop and run the length of pipe into the house, leaving it unconnected at either end, as the builders gave me access before we'd completed the purchase to do a few jobs like this; laying flooring throughout the house and making an additional access and hardstanding alongside the garage for my small yacht to go during the winter.  I thought that the builder had used his own gas fitter, but looking at the photo the prominent Calor labels suggests it was done by them, perhaps.

Edited February 21, 2017 by JSHarris

[ProDave]

One thing I must stress Terry, is we are not having a go at YOU. but at least we are all in agreement your fitter has fallen short of the mark, and as Steptoe says there are shoddy workers in our trade as well, probably in all trades.

 

It does need to be put right. That hose is the bit that worries me most and needs the proper fittings (and being a bit shorter would not hurt either)

 

I asked for a picture earlier which seems to have opened this can of worms. That's because I was hoping for some guidance from a professional install of how it should be done, so if I chose to do mine myself I would have some guidance. Needless to say I wont follow that example.

 

What to do?  Get him back. Though if it were me, I would have the bit of paper I needed and I would now put it right myself and curse never to employ a "gas fitter" again.
 

[Bitpipe]

This reminds me of a similar thread that I started when attaching 2 47kg propane tanks to the caravan.

 

My regular (and nearly retired) gas safe plumber hooked it up but did not insist on securing the tanks (was more of a recommendation against theft than safety) and I proudly posted the pics, only to have Nick and Dave tutor me in how to make it secure. I concreted in 3 posts and chained the  cylinders every which way to prevent any risk of toppling etc. Very glad of the advice too.

 

My LPG delivery guy suggested a cage for both anti-theft and safety - was impractical for us but might work for you Terry?

[Jeremy Harris]

34 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

My LPG delivery guy suggested a cage for both anti-theft and safety - was impractical for us but might work for you Terry?

 

Looking at the photo I have, the galvanised straps around our bottles look very much like an anti-theft measure, as the hinge is padlocked closed.  If it's still available, then the strap looks like a nice, neat way to secure the bottles to the wall and reduce the risk of theft.  Certainly neater than chains or a cage.

 

WRG to there being good and bad in all trades, I'd agree (and my experience with an electrician who couldn't properly fit a 20S gland that I'd supplied to a 1.5mm SWA cable I'd also supplied, leaving it with the armour barely gripped at all, backs this up).  However, in this case I'm inclined to wonder whether the gas fitter may just have been unfamiliar with LPG installations.   In areas with mains gas, like Terry's, I bet gas fitters don't do much, if any, bottled LPG work.  I know there's a very good argument for saying that he/she should have been familiar with the need to use proper hoses, secure the cylinders from being knocked over, etc, but if he/she hadn't done a bottled LPG installation at all, or for some years, then this could just be down to unfamiliarity with bottled LPG.