Vijay Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Evening, I'm trying to get my head around this by reading posts on here and I'm totally and utterly confused. Do I actually require it as UI read this on a post "You should only notify HSE if the work is scheduled to last longer than 30 working days and have more than 20 workers working simultaneously at any point on the project (OR is scheduled to exceed 500 person days of construction work). Any day on which construction work is carried out (including holidays and weekends) should be counted, even if the work on that day is of a short duration"???? If I do need it, is there an actual check list of requirements? I plan on managing my build and employing trades as I need/can afford them. From posts I have a few things listed: Insurance (including employers liability?) Toilets Hand washing Drinking water First aid including eye wash Personal protection equipment - Hi viz jackets, hard hats, eye and ear protection Fire extinguishers Paperwork for trades to sign which shows that I have explained any H&S required, contact details and insurance cover. Any help with this would be massively appreciated as I am at a complete loss with it. Vijay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Hi Given the size of your project I can pretty much guarantee you will exceed F10 limits - 500 days is 2 man years. That list you have is pretty accurate although CDM2014 needs a lot more admin including Principal Designer and Principal Contractor - the latter you "could" do yourself, the former you need to engage your architect and be ready for either the bill or them declining the request. Basically you become responsible for the H&S of the whole build - start with the CITB CDM website for more info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 Hi Peter, Sadly I thought I might have to What do you do if your architect declines? What's the reason for having the PD with health a safety????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) +1 to @Sensus thoughts above. It does not have to be the architect but as I understand it you will have to show that the responsibility is real so keep some separation between this role and the client, perhaps appoint your partner as the client. Again as I understand it It must be clear that the pre construction phase H&S is to the fore and won't be compromised by client demands such as speed, risk, cost etc and any risks in the register are passed through to the construction phase or removed from / in the design. Here is where I got my thinking from. https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/CDM_2015_principal_designer_duties Edited December 28, 2016 by MikeSharp01 Added Ice link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 23 hours ago, Sensus said: The reason for having Principal Designer is to manage the H&S risks during the design phase of the work, and ensure that relevant information is carried forward to the construction phase. Edited to add: it's probably worth mentioning that the F10 is just a notification, no more, no less. Even if your project is small enough not to require an F10, you still have to comply with all the other requirements, and you still have a Principal Designer and Principle Contractor. So what is the actual role of the principal designer with H&S? I've employed an architect to design a house and then another to do working drawings, I'm really confused why HSE still want them involved after that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 58 minutes ago, Sensus said: Basically, to manage, coordinate, and collate H&S information at the design stage (pulling it together from the various 'Designers'), then to ensure it is passed to the Principal Contractor for the construction phase of works. Note that the definition of 'Designer' (as opposed to Principal Designer) is quite broad... it can be anyone who contributes to or influences the design, from Architect and Structural Engineer, to scaffolding contractor or window supplier, so you can be drawing together information from lots of sources. Also note that the 'Principal Designer' and 'Principal Contractor' titles are misleading... they're purely H&S related roles, and are not necessarily the 'lead' designer (usually the Architect) or Main Contractor. The HSE website gives good basic summaries of the various roles. If you don't understand the requirements as set out on the HSE's website, or aren't sure what you'd need to do to comply with them, then it's probably time to bring in a professional... one of the core requirements for each and every role is that the person undertaking it must have 'sufficient knowledge, experience and ability' to carry it out so, to put it bluntly, it's pretty much a case of 'if you need to ask the question, you're not fit to do the job'. I genuinely appreciate your thoughts but I believe it trying to understand as much as I can and asking question in order to understand. You can apply your blunt comment to pretty much everything in life until you learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 On 29 December 2016 at 21:16, Vijay said: You can apply your blunt comment to pretty much everything in life until you learn That completely depends upon whether or not you need to be fully competent from the word go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 I know I'll get shot for saying this but being a 70's child I think H&S has gone a little crazy. I'm a firm believer in common sense goes a long way and if people haven't got that, then H&S is way over their heads anyway. Please believe me when I say I would never want or expect anyone to do anything unsafe just so I can have my house. Trades on my site will be a minimum as I plan to do a lot of the work myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: That completely depends upon whether or not you need to be fully competent from the word go That's a fair point Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Vijay said: I know I'll get shot for saying this but being a 70's child I think H&S has gone a little crazy. I'm a firm believer in common sense goes a long way and if people haven't got that, then H&S is way over their heads anyway. The problem is that the zeitgeist - and more importantly the legislation - isn't interested in your beliefs about common sense. If you properly fulfil your obligations, then some numpty doing something stupid when your back's turned is far less likely to result in you being sued, or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 Oh please don't get me wrong, what ever I believe won't stop me from following my H&S obligations 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 In all of my site inductions we've been reminded that "we're each responsible for our own safety". When you invite others you then become responsible for them. Basically it's a minefield. Oh, and let's not forget the ones who'll injure themselves whilst doing something wrong and then adjust the circumstances, whilst your backs turned, and push the fault, and subsequent liability, onto you. For the benefit of our female readers I won't repeat the word I use to describe those bottom feeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Sensus said: I wouldn't want to be the one who had to sit there and admit that I was Client and had appointed myself Principal Designer and Principal Contractor, but that no, I had no formal qualifications, no previous experience, and was just working on the basis of advice given on an internet forum... The thing is, as a self builder, you are the client, you play a significant part in the design, you select the principle contractor(s) and have some responsibility for health and safety (risk assessment, job safety analysis, work methods etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 41 minutes ago, Triassic said: The thing is, as a self builder, you are the client, you play a significant part in the design, you select the principle contractor(s) and have some responsibility for health and safety (risk assessment, job safety analysis, work methods etc). I think the key difference is that in this case you also create a commercial and contractual relationship between client and the trades which provides for some reasonable protection and expectation of devolved responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Can I ask a "variation" on this subject. What if you are a self builder. You have had a contractor in to build and erect a timber frame for you. They have finished and gone (without any accidents) The house is finished outside. You are now working 100% on your own to finish the inside of the house and not intending to employ any other trades. You have a self build insurance policy in place. How does the situation change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Sensus said: @ProDave But I wouldn't take my word for it - I'd ask the HSE for their view, directly (though you might want to pitch it as a leading question, to make sure you get the right answer ). Good luck with that, my experience of asking HSE a question about being a self builder was they replied saying 'everything was on their website'. Edited January 2, 2017 by readiescards Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vfrdave Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Not sure if this is of any help or only acts to confuse further :- https://www.citb.co.uk/documents/cdm regs/cdm 2015 - qa 3 self build projects.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 41 minutes ago, vfrdave said: Not sure if this is of any help or only acts to confuse further :- https://www.citb.co.uk/documents/cdm regs/cdm 2015 - qa 3 self build projects.pdf Interesting document. but I take issue with paragraph 4. If I appointed someone to build and erect the frame, I am NOT "taking control of construction work" the builder is doing that and I am just letting him get on and do his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vfrdave Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, ProDave said: Interesting document. but I take issue with paragraph 4. If I appointed someone to build and erect the frame, I am NOT "taking control of construction work" the builder is doing that and I am just letting him get on and do his job. Still leaves some grey areas but sheds more light on the issue with specific separation on the adoption of CDM for commercial building and that of a self-builder like most of us here. I am still confused a little and concerned enough to consult further with some personal contacts in NHBC that I have who have and do deal with H&S. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vfrdave Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sensus said: Well, just to confuse further, I've had expert opinion (from one of the key people who was involved in writing the Regs) that suggests that self-build clients are not domestic clients, as under law (Planning law, etc.) a house doesn't become a house until it is occupied.... and in any case you can't guarantee that it is a self-build for self-occupation untol it is likewise finished and occupied. Every small builder in the country could try to pull that one... In any case, whilst it would change the 'Client' responsibilities, the PD and PC responsibilities remain identical, regardless. I can't see how a self-builder is not a self builder if they have submitted a domestic planning application in their name and take out a self-build mortgage in order to construct said domestic property and need a contractor to carry out construction. Every small builder in the country wouldn't in the case you reference be appointing a contractor and assigning them as the PC, like me as a self builder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 Just an update. Spoke to HSE today and they confirmed what my architectural technician told me, that I do not need a PD as my house was already designed and approved. They told me to just put my name as the PD on the form. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 4 hours ago, Sensus said: Approved by who? There is no 'approval' process under CDM?! Planning approval. Once the the design is done the PD role is complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Triassic said: Planning approval. Once the the design is done the PD role is complete. Exactly what I've been told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 My architect rode off into the sunset a long ago and he's not coming back, so it looks like I'm the client, PD, project manager, health and safety manager, QS, and sweeper up'er. I'm not going to loose sleep over it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 On 1/10/2017 at 08:39, Sensus said: Absolutely and categorically wrong on both counts And here's the briefest, definitive, well-written guidance I've found which explains the issue in relation to self-builders cdm 2015 - qa 3 self build projects.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now