Architect Technician - Required During Build?

[soapstar]

Hello Folks,

 

We find ourselves in an awkward predicament, with our build now started we are starting to question the need for our architect/technician.

 

To not go into too many details, is it at all necessary to have a architectural technician employed after the planning/building warrant stage is complete and the build has started? I cant go into much details for privacy issues however we seem to be paying our technician to whom drew the plans, assisted us through receiving our BW drawings etc as we now progress to the build stage. I am now questioning 'why do we still need to pay for their services?'

 

From starting the build there has only been minor details that the builders own architect has queried to whom our technician has been in contact with to discuss - no ground breaking detail or demanding work.

 

The sign off for the build is being done  via another party - nothing to do with the technician.

 

So it boils down to...do I need to pay this person (a some what over inflated fee in my opinion) to provide advice during the time of our build? Would it be wise to just deal directly with the builders architect? This only raises the question on the ownership etc of the plans to which the technician drew, do they have rights over these?

 

Im so glad I have this forum to ask help - I dont know what I would do without it!

[Dreadnaught]

On one of your points, it is my understanding, that so long as the designs and drawings are used for the construction of the dwelling for which they are originally produced, there is no concern over rights. A concern would arise only if you were, for example, to re-sell the design to others for profit.

 

With some architects obtaining the CAD files, on the other hand, can be tricky. Not with my architect I should add; I have all of mine for my build.

[soapstar]

3 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

On one of your points, it is my understanding, that so long as the designs and drawings are used for the construction of the dwelling for which they are originally produced, there is no concern over rights. A concern would arise only if you were, for example, to re-sell the design to others for profit.

 

With some architects obtaining the CAD files, on the other hand, can be tricky. Not with my architect I should add; I have all of mine for my build.

 

Thanks. Thats a good point regarding CAD files, it may be wise to get these (for a fee no doubt)

Edited July 15, 2020 by soapstar

[Thedreamer]

Yes and no.

 

A small fee might be chargeable if you have any queries or questions over the plans during the course of the build. There also might be times when they need to provide more information to trades during the build. 

 

Finally depending on how confident you are, submissions will need to be made via building standard portal during the build process. I did my own commencement and request for temporary habitation. 

 

I agree with @Dreadnaught regarding the plans.

 

[joe90]

If full plans are passed why the involvement of the technician? If the builder can’t work it out you/he should ask the BI what they want surely?

[nod]

1 hour ago, soapstar said:

Hello Folks,

 

We find ourselves in an awkward predicament, with our build now started we are starting to question the need for our architect/technician.

 

To not go into too many details, is it at all necessary to have a architectural technician employed after the planning/building warrant stage is complete and the build has started? I cant go into much details for privacy issues however we seem to be paying our technician to whom drew the plans, assisted us through receiving our BW drawings etc as we now progress to the build stage. I am now questioning 'why do we still need to pay for their services?'

 

From starting the build there has only been minor details that the builders own architect has queried to whom our technician has been in contact with to discuss - no ground breaking detail or demanding work.

 

The sign off for the build is being done  via another party - nothing to do with the technician.

 

So it boils down to...do I need to pay this person (a some what over inflated fee in my opinion) to provide advice during the time of our build? Would it be wise to just deal directly with the builders architect? This only raises the question on the ownership etc of the plans to which the technician drew, do they have rights over these?

 

Im so glad I have this forum to ask help - I dont know what I would do without it!

You should be parting company with your Architect once you break ground and paid his fee Perhaps the odd phone call if there is an issue with design 

Once you have paid your fee You own the drawings for your build 

Most builders are capable of following the drawings without an input from an Architect Unless the Architect assistant has cocked up 

Which happens quite regularly 

[the_r_sole]

25 minutes ago, nod said:

You should be parting company with your Architect once you break ground and paid his fee Perhaps the odd phone call if there is an issue with design 

 

If you don't pay me to inspect construction regularly, you don't get me at the end of the phone answering queries either - once a project goes on site without our involvement then there's far too many implications in answering queries on work you haven't seen. Regularly we have builders offering clients "cheaper alternatives" (especially on glazing/rooflights) not realising that the spec of glass is determined by the SAP etc. then at the end they can't get completions and bring us back in to try and get things signed off...

Our building warrant (regs) drawings are only there to confirm compliance with the building regulations, construction drawings should be much more detailed and specific - so it depends on what level of information you have had prepared, how much you trust the builder to make assumptions based on your priorities (not theirs) and how much you want a third party to carry out inspections for quality and finish (not just technical compliance with the regulations)

[ragg987]

With our architect we agreed to switch to a on demand model after they completed the detail drawings. Hourly rate agreed in advance.

 

Useful for queries, for instance. Worked well, I needed their involvement maybe twice during the 11 month build.

[Bitpipe]

Agree with above, depending on the service you will get from your 'builder' (i.e. may be TF firm, etc..) you may decide that your architect's continued services are duplicative and not required.

 

However, per @the_r_sole - you need to understand the implications of ceasing that relationship and what remaining obligations they have. You can rely on goodwill for the occasional query but don't be upset if you don't get it as this is after all a commercial relationship and they may be unwilling to provide anything if they feel uncomfortable professionally doing so.

 

In our case, our architect designed a beautiful house for us and secured planning over some LA and neighbour objections on the second pass. As our thoughts turned to low energy construction methods and then, more specifically passive timber frame, they admitted that this was not an in house skill set but they would re-interpret drawings and do the building control and planning conditions submissions for a sizeable fee.

 

As the TF firm was producing their own detailed drawings & calcs - I checked with the independent BC firm that they would be satisfied with those and when they agreed, we politely parted company with the architect and did our own planning conditions submission together with supplying the BC with what they needed.

 

It all worked out fine and we saved a sizeable chunk of money, however we did not go back to them for any professional advice thereafter but did stay in contact wrt progress as they were interested in the end result.

[nod]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

 

If you don't pay me to inspect construction regularly, you don't get me at the end of the phone answering queries either - once a project goes on site without our involvement then there's far too many implications in answering queries on work you haven't seen. Regularly we have builders offering clients "cheaper alternatives" (especially on glazing/rooflights) not realising that the spec of glass is determined by the SAP etc. then at the end they can't get completions and bring us back in to try and get things signed off...

Our building warrant (regs) drawings are only there to confirm compliance with the building regulations, construction drawings should be much more detailed and specific - so it depends on what level of information you have had prepared, how much you trust the builder to make assumptions based on your priorities (not theirs) and how much you want a third party to carry out inspections for quality and finish (not just technical compliance with the regulations)

To be care unless the house is a grand designs you hardly need an Architect 

Floors Refer to BB

First floor Refer to chamber design 

Roof and steel same 

The place for an Architect is right at the beginning to get through planning 

[soapstar]

I see this has somewhat of a divided opinion among everyone!

 

I agree in a sense with if there are any major changes you cant expect the architect to drop sticks and jump onto your job if you have told them you wish to part ways, although on the other hand it makes total sense to agree an hourly rate or fixed fee for certain degree of works if and when required? I really do not hope to have any major changes to the structure etc during the course of our build but you can never say never.

 

4 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

 

If you don't pay me to inspect construction regularly, you don't get me at the end of the phone answering queries either - once a project goes on site without our involvement then there's far too many implications in answering queries on work you haven't seen. Regularly we have builders offering clients "cheaper alternatives" (especially on glazing/rooflights) not realising that the spec of glass is determined by the SAP etc. then at the end they can't get completions and bring us back in to try and get things signed off...

Our building warrant (regs) drawings are only there to confirm compliance with the building regulations, construction drawings should be much more detailed and specific - so it depends on what level of information you have had prepared, how much you trust the builder to make assumptions based on your priorities (not theirs) and how much you want a third party to carry out inspections for quality and finish (not just technical compliance with the regulations)

 

Surely if this was done wrong it lies on the builder to rectify?

 

I am paying the builder my life savings to do what they know, build! If they cannot do this properly with a set of well drawn CAD plans then surely the blame lands with them, why should you pay a middle man to 'make sure' everything is ok?!

[the_r_sole]

20 minutes ago, soapstar said:

Surely if this was done wrong it lies on the builder to rectify?

 

I am paying the builder my life savings to do what they know, build! If they cannot do this properly with a set of well drawn CAD plans then surely the blame lands with them, why should you pay a middle man to 'make sure' everything is ok?!

 

Builders don't always know or understand the finer points of the building regulations - I've lost count the number of times the "expensive glazing" that we have specced very specifically, has been down graded by well meaning builders and caused huge knock on effects when you go for completion. 

There are many reasons why having a third party expert inspecting throughout the process - but if your mindset is that they are unnecessary middle men, then there's nothing I can do to change your mind, after all, why would you possibly want to ensure that someone is making sure your life savings aren't all in the hands of a builder?!

[joe90]

I suppose it depends on how involved or capable the owner is. I am an ex builder and have done all the specification and acted as project manager so a third party would be a waste of money (in fact my main contractor appointed his project manager but he never had to come to site). Someone with no knowledge of the building trade or the specifics of what has been specified would need someone to help with the finer details.

[the_r_sole]

29 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I suppose it depends on how involved or capable the owner is. I am an ex builder and have done all the specification and acted as project manager so a third party would be a waste of money (in fact my main contractor appointed his project manager but he never had to come to site). Someone with no knowledge of the building trade or the specifics of what has been specified would need someone to help with the finer details.

 

You're correct there - and a self build forum might not be the best place for this comment as most on here are hugely knowledgeable! - but, I've seen a lot of self-builders fall into the trap of getting rid of all the consultants after they get a builder and end up with something go wrong during construction, 99% of jobs have changes as they go along, at least in scotland you must have building regs approval so the builder can only go so wrong! But I've seen a lot of costly mistakes due to builders thinking their anecdotal understanding of particular building regs doesn't have an impact to the overall picture.

saying that I've had projects which have gone on site and we've never heard a peep again, I've also had one where the builder appointed us for the site stage because the client was making changes all the time!

(I'd also say I've been involved in very few, if any, houses that would be considered "grand designs")

[soapstar]

@the_r_sole Thanks very much for your insight its very helpful, you obviously know what your talking about!

 

Can I ask, is it wise of me to ask my technician that we work on a 'pay as you go' model opposed to this 'fee' we seem to being getting charged on a stage by stage basis - I mean my biggest issue with this is we dont have a clue what the future holds for the build, it may need no more input or may need major changes (crystal ball anyone?!) ?

[the_r_sole]

1 minute ago, soapstar said:

@the_r_sole Thanks very much for your insight its very helpful, you obviously know what your talking about!

 

Can I ask, is it wise of me to ask my technician that we work on a 'pay as you go' model opposed to this 'fee' we seem to being getting charged on a stage by stage basis - I mean my biggest issue with this is we dont have a clue what the future holds for the build, it may need no more input or may need major changes (crystal ball anyone?!) ?

 

There's a couple of things to consider imo - how complex is your build, and are there any real technical or aesthetic choices you've made so far?

If you aren't intending on having a contract admin or any one tracking variations, what is the builder proposing to track and charge for changes?

(the last thing you want is a bill for extras, three months after you've moved in)

Do they have any checking process for changes, so for example, you say to them, I fancy moving that door way, or I want that door to open inwards, not outwards - who checks that it still complies with the building regs?

I've been on site recently where the client wanted to install a shower tray which was 200mm bigger than I had shown on a drawing and the builder said it was fine - I got them to mark out the shower tray and the activity spaces required for the room on the ground and they could then see that it didn't work, but unfortunately, someone had to pay a restocking charge!

What you want to make sure is that your risk is managed, I always say to people, we'll upset the builder so you don't have to! It's fine when the builder is moaning about the architect and the client is moaning about the builder to us, rather than having a direct confrontation between client and builder...

[Ferdinand]

Very good advice on the thread - it is bespoke to the situation.

 

21 minutes ago, soapstar said:

@the_r_sole Thanks very much for your insight its very helpful, you obviously know what your talking about!

 

Can I ask, is it wise of me to ask my technician that we work on a 'pay as you go' model opposed to this 'fee' we seem to being getting charged on a stage by stage basis - I mean my biggest issue with this is we dont have a clue what the future holds for the build, it may need no more input or mayneed major changes (crystal ball anyone?!) ?

 

You can probably identify a list of things that REQUIRE professional input (eg report to bank for stage payments?), and a list of things that I term WIBNIs (wouldn't it be nice if...) that you would LIKE to have your Archi-wotsit available for.

 

Then - also depending on eg other stuff such as whether your design is well-frozen or may change, your own condfidence in your own competence etc, you use your skill and judgement to come up with an arrangement - which you are more likely to get right because you have thought about it carefully.

 

F 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

You're correct there - and a self build forum might not be the best place for this comment as most on here are hugely knowledgeable! - but, I've seen a lot of self-builders fall into the trap of getting rid of all the consultants after they get a builder and end up with something go wrong during construction, 99% of jobs have changes as they go along, at least in scotland you must have building regs approval so the builder can only go so wrong! But I've seen a lot of costly mistakes due to builders thinking their anecdotal understanding of particular building regs doesn't have an impact to the overall picture.

I'm glad we've continued with our architectural technologist, it was fixed, staged pricing and I don't think it was expensive. He manages the contract with the builder, signs off the interim certificates, keeps us on the correct side of the regulations and has handled all the planning and warrants. 

 

It's taken a big amount of stress off my shoulders, mitigated a chunk of risk and to be honest I got to the point where I just wanted the bloody house built. 

 

I take my hat off to the folks on here who have gone full on into the self build journey and taken on every aspect of it. It's not for everyone.

 

[soapstar]

13 hours ago, Ralph said:

I'm glad we've continued with our architectural technologist, it was fixed, staged pricing and I don't think it was expensive. He manages the contract with the builder, signs off the interim certificates, keeps us on the correct side of the regulations and has handled all the planning and warrants. 

 

It's taken a big amount of stress off my shoulders, mitigated a chunk of risk and to be honest I got to the point where I just wanted the bloody house built. 

 

I take my hat off to the folks on here who have gone full on into the self build journey and taken on every aspect of it. It's not for everyone.

 

Thats interesting to hear, you certainly seem to have the same mindset as myself in that I just want this bloody house built!

 

I must admit having that person to go to does take off pressure some what, however at the price we are being charged and doesn’t include signing off (paying another party for this) it is making me think twice. 

 

I feel like they cannot charge a set one off fee for each stage if they don’t know the work involved..maybe I am wrong? Are we speaking hundreds or thousands here? ?

 

Am I not right in saying your build was in my neck of the woods, NE Scotland?

Edited July 16, 2020 by soapstar

[the_r_sole]

2 hours ago, soapstar said:

Thats interesting to hear, you certainly seem to have the same mindset as myself in that I just want this bloody house built!

 

I must admit having that person to go to does take off pressure some what, however at the price we are being charged and doesn’t include signing off (paying another party for this) it is making me think twice. 

 

I feel like they cannot charge a set one off fee for each stage if they don’t know the work involved..maybe I am wrong? Are we speaking hundreds or thousands here? ?

 

Am I not right in saying your build was in my neck of the woods, NE Scotland?

 

What do you mean by "signing it off"?

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, soapstar said:

I feel like they cannot charge a set one off fee for each stage if they don’t know the work involved..maybe I am wrong? Are we speaking hundreds or thousands here? ?

 

Am I not right in saying your build was in my neck of the woods, NE Scotland?

I think RIAS have some sort of fee guidance for domestic work but I'm not 100% sure. I think as long as the scope is clearly defined as fixed price is fine with most architects. To administer the contract, so liaise with the builder, sign off on the interim certificates and general keep us right is £1,400. This includes all the sight visits etc. For a full service contract the range seems to be about 5 - 15 % of the build cost, we're going to be be right at the bottom end of that.

 

I suppose it's a bit like insurance, if everything goes smoothly you may feel that you've wasted some cash.

 

We're up by Edzell/Brechin, our frame is arriving Friday and going up over the next few weeks if you fancy a visit. How far on with the bulid are you?

[Carrerahill]

On 15/07/2020 at 08:29, soapstar said:

 

Thanks. Thats a good point regarding CAD files, it may be wise to get these (for a fee no doubt)

Have you got them in PDF? If so they can be converted (and dimensioned correctly). I do it all the time.

 

Occasionally, it fails, but that is more to do with a wonky printed PDF.

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, soapstar said:

Thats interesting to hear, you certainly seem to have the same mindset as myself in that I just want this bloody house built!

 

I must admit having that person to go to does take off pressure some what, however at the price we are being charged and doesn’t include signing off (paying another party for this) it is making me think twice. 

 

I feel like they cannot charge a set one off fee for each stage if they don’t know the work involved..maybe I am wrong? Are we speaking hundreds or thousands here? ?

 

Am I not right in saying your build was in my neck of the woods, NE Scotland?

 

There speaks the individual with previous experience of staring at the 5000 pieces of the Christmas Jigsaw until Easter, who bought the print of the picture or the 500 piece version next time around. ?

 

They can do whatever they like, and you can get whatever you negotiate, but you don't always find the A you want to use willing to do as you want in all respects, and individual fees may always be loaded vs a comprehensive package.

 

My personal approach is that having done a number of reno projects I tend to be happy on the design side and much of the rest, but when I need A input it tends to be little enough of the overall project that I would tend to do it on a bit by bit basis charged by time plus disbursements. When I get around to my next significant project I may change that.

 

This is an interview with Allan Corfield Architects explaining their stage fee structures and motivations, which may be useful background.

https://www.houseplanninghelp.com/hph168-an-example-of-how-much-it-costs-to-hire-an-architect-with-allan-corfield/

 

F

[soapstar]

On 16/07/2020 at 09:30, the_r_sole said:

 

What do you mean by "signing it off"?

Signing off as in each stage of the build, foundations,  slab, wind/water right etc. Our technician cannot obviously do this not being qualified to do so.

 

On 16/07/2020 at 09:34, Ralph said:

I think RIAS have some sort of fee guidance for domestic work but I'm not 100% sure. I think as long as the scope is clearly defined as fixed price is fine with most architects. To administer the contract, so liaise with the builder, sign off on the interim certificates and general keep us right is £1,400. This includes all the sight visits etc. For a full service contract the range seems to be about 5 - 15 % of the build cost, we're going to be be right at the bottom end of that.

 

I suppose it's a bit like insurance, if everything goes smoothly you may feel that you've wasted some cash.

 

We're up by Edzell/Brechin, our frame is arriving Friday and going up over the next few weeks if you fancy a visit. How far on with the bulid are you?

Hmm by the sounds of those figures we are paying quite a bit over that! I will take a look and see if the RIAS have any advice.

 

Thats interesting, our frame has just recently started. Might take you up on that offer, we are only about 30 mins away.

 

I may message you if you don’t mind? regarding what your setup is with your architect? My situation is very complicated and I feel it wouldn’t be right having it out in the open for all...hopefully that’s ok to do on this forum.

[the_r_sole]

21 minutes ago, soapstar said:

Signing off as in each stage of the build, foundations,  slab, wind/water right etc. Our technician cannot obviously do this not being qualified to do so.

 

Hmm by the sounds of those figures we are paying quite a bit over that! I will take a look and see if the RIAS

 

Sorry I don't understand, what are you expecting to be signed off and for what purpose? For contractor payments? For compliance? For mortgage release? 

 

It might be worth trying to explain to us what you want your technician to do and for what purpose?

RIAS don't publish fee guidelines any more, and they wouldn't have any remit for a technician duties either