Extra flush toilet

[Tennentslager]

Hello @Nickfromwales not seen you around, hope ye are all well.

i have a client with autism who is regularly blocking the WC and we think she may be excessively wiping and putting LOTS of toilet paper down before flushing.

I know there are volume of water regs and in England you have water meters, this is not an issue in this circumstance 

I can’t find a bigger flush toilet even in the disabled listings

would a raised cistern create more ‘push’ 

what’s the collective opinion?

As with all of my clients, money is tight and if it’s ££££ no chance of that happening 

Second question, would the run of the 110 waste pipe work in any way cause/ stop pan blocking?

[Cpd]

My grandparents had a loo that had the pan down at the normal place but the water holder was way up the wall.....  it had a chain that you pulled and it was a serious flush!

It’s strange what you remember from your childhood.......  can’t rely on childhood memories but you would think that if it’s high up it’s going to come down with more force. 

[ToughButterCup]

I remember ages ago somebody telling me that there is a chemical that you can buy to solve that problem . 

But I'd try baking soda and a bit of vinegar......

[AliG]

We have Porcelanosa WCs with Noken in wall cisterns. The cisterns look very similar to Geberit ones to me.

 

I think the plumber ignored the measurements and set them to fill to the maximum level possible.

 

I don't know if it is this or just the design of these cisterns but they send the water into the bowl with way more force than the toilets we used to have. The water definitely travels faster and leaves the bowl a lot cleaner. If you look at the design of the even the cheap concealed Geberit cistern it sits about a foot above the bowl, so maybe that helps compared to a close coupled toilet.

 

My wife just told me that we have a friend with a son who has a similar problem and constantly blocks the toilet in their house. He had zero issues when they stayed with us for a week.

 

You might also disconnect the half flush so they can only use the full flush.

Edited April 10, 2020 by AliG

[PeterW]

What’s the current flush capacity ..? 9 litre cisterns are available, most are in reality 12 litre but the flush mechanism stops them at 4 or 6. 
 

As @Cpd says, a long drop tube with a flap flush that allows the whole contents of the cistern into the pan is an option but won’t be cheap - reclaim yard may be your best bet .?

[Tennentslager]

Does the capacity of the pan have to equal the capacity of the cistern...otherwise with a complete block we have overflow?

[Cpd]

I’ve got a massive throne like pan lying around....... it’s so big its hilarious......  the guys a the builders merchant were having a clear out of old stock and as usual gave me a shout....... I took it with the intention of making an outdoor loo with a view...... never going to get round to it...... it’s yours if you ever want a crazzy big throne ! It’s destined to go into a hole in the ground one day but it makes me laugh every time I see it ! 

[AliG]

I had a bit of a Google on this as I wanted to know if you could tell why some toilets flush better than others.

 

The toilets where I work have hands free flush and block all the time for example.

 

Worth checking the current toilet for a couple of things. 

 

You get 1.5 inch and 2inch flush valves. The larger valve will let the water through faster so should flush better. If it is 1.5 inch you might be able to replace the valve or cistern/valve which wouldn't be too expensive.

 

Does the toilet have a flush handle or a button system? Some syphon flushes with a handle can be set to do a smaller flush. Worth checking if it actually empties the whole cistern when it is flushed.

[SteamyTea]

15 hours ago, Cpd said:

My grandparents had a loo that had the pan down at the normal place but the water holder was way up the wall.....  it had a chain that you pulled and it was a serious flush!

 

When you hear about people being killed by a lavatory, it is the cistern lid falling off.  Ask @DamonHD (I think) how much it hurts.

 

 

[ProDave]

The toilet does need to be matched to the cistern.  In a previous house the toilet was quite old and the cistern was a lot larger than modern ones, but I don't know how much larger.  At the time, water saving was becoming popular and the water company sent everyone a device to reduce the toilet flush volume. It was basically a plastic bag that you filled with water and placed in the cistern,

 

It was a total dead loss,  the reduced volume of water with a pan expecting a large volume just did not clear solids and took 2 or 3 flushes.  I think I left it there for 2 days to give it a fair trial and then removed and binned it.

[SteamyTea]

Put a bucket by the bog.  Works for my floaters (which reminds me).

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

The toilet does need to be matched to the cistern.  In a previous house the toilet was quite old and the cistern was a lot larger than modern ones, but I don't know how much larger.  At the time, water saving was becoming popular and the water company sent everyone a device to reduce the toilet flush volume. It was basically a plastic bag that you filled with water and placed in the cistern,

 

It was a total dead loss,  the reduced volume of water with a pan expecting a large volume just did not clear solids and took 2 or 3 flushes.  I think I left it there for 2 days to give it a fair trial and then removed and binned it.

 

 

I remember these, weren't they called "Hippos"?  I also remember them being totally useless, same experience as you had.

 

The thing I've found is that it's the pan design that seems critical.   We have two different designs of Vitra pans, all have the same cistern and flush system.  One design flushes noticeably more effectively than the other design, yet they look very similar.  makes me think that even small changes in the shape can have a large impact on how effective the flush is.

[Ferdinand]

16 hours ago, Cpd said:

My grandparents had a loo that had the pan down at the normal place but the water holder was way up the wall.....  it had a chain that you pulled and it was a serious flush!

It’s strange what you remember from your childhood.......  can’t rely on childhood memories but you would think that if it’s high up it’s going to come down with more force. 

 

Isn't that just a traditional loo?

 

Perhaps available from an architectural salvage firm.

 

Another alternative for @Tennentslager may be an American Loo, which I think have larger flush volumes.

 

I would probably suggest phoning up a loo manufacturing company and asking to be put to the technical support team. I did that when I was trying to identify loos with spare seats available (like M&S used to sell you an extra pair of trousers with your suit). I got good advice from Ideal iirc - at least I now have 2 Ideal loos, and 2 spare seats.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

13 hours ago, Tennentslager said:

Does the capacity of the pan have to equal the capacity of the cistern...otherwise with a complete block we have overflow?

 

Commonsense says it would need to exceed it with an error margin ?. 

 

Even when blocked, I have yet to see a loo overflow from one flush, and there has usually been space for the extra water in a small bucket dispensed whilst standing on a stool for "maximum impulse", without too much of a tsunami.

 

F

Edited April 11, 2020 by Ferdinand

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

whilst standing on a stool for "maximum impulse"

Wear Wellingtons.

Each to their own.

[AliG]

59 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Another alternative for @Tennentslager may be an American Loo, which I think have larger flush volumes.

 

 

I watched a toilet being installed in the in laws in California a few years ago. I was very surprised to find that most American toilets have the waste in the bottom and sit on a seal between the toilet and the floor. It took the plumber ages to get it to not leak.

 

Standard flush valves in America are 2 or 3 inches so the water comes down faster, but they too have been making the flush volumes smaller. Actually I go to America a lot for work and hotel toilets are awful for blocking there as they are really pushing the water saving.

 

Standard flush in the US was 1.6 gallons (7.2l) but now it seems to be moving to 1.28 gallons which is basically the same as our 6 litres with smaller bowls also. I checked the spec on my cistern and it is also sold in the US so can take 7.2l.

[Ferdinand]

1 minute ago, AliG said:

. I checked the spec on my cistern and it is also sold in the US so can take 7.2l.

 

Does that mean that some cisterns have an internal adjustment or an alternative float?

 

Or can the float be adjusted appropriately in some circumstances?

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Does that mean that some cisterns have an internal adjustment or an alternative float?

 

Or can the float be adjusted appropriately in some circumstances?

 

 

Some can be adjusted.  At our old house I had to have one set to pretty much as high as it would go to get the toilet to flush well, whilst the other toilet seemed to be fine with it set to whatever the default level was.

[PeterW]

All the new flush mechanisms can be adjusted as it is about volume of flush and if you set them to the same height then different shape cisterns would contain different amounts of water at the same height .. 

 

Plenty of information on the Siamp website as they white label a lot of the other manufacturers products.  

[Ferdinand]

There is an excellent Flush Toilet article on Wiki, which covers a ludicrous amount of ground.

 

And there also seems to be a thing called a "pressure assisted flush", which works at .. er .. higher pressure.

F

[Tennentslager]

17 hours ago, Cpd said:

I’ve got a massive throne like pan lying around....... it’s so big its hilarious......  the guys a the builders merchant were having a clear out of old stock and as usual gave me a shout....... I took it with the intention of making an outdoor loo with a view...... never going to get round to it...... it’s yours if you ever want a crazzy big throne ! It’s destined to go into a hole in the ground one day but it makes me laugh every time I see it ! 

You just have to send a picture now!

I once stayed in a grand country house and the WC off of the billiard room had a bespoke toilet that was huge

Also had a oak seat hinged and attached to the wall, everything about it was ornate, carved and very grand

In  village near Glendaruel on the Mull of Kintyre I recall

[Tennentslager]

Okay so have now investigated the American option of a siphonic toilet, read about this v European systems here

https://toiletfound.com/siphonic-vs-washdown-toilet-which-is-better/

Ruled out due to small bore in the waste department 

Final lingering thought...why have we never ever seen a toilet shop which actually has the feckers plumbed in!

I did once see a bath filled with blue water but H&S demanded it had a metal grill over it...toddler guard I guess

 

 

[ProDave]

My recollection of American toilets, is they did not have flush cisterns, but rather a pushbutton, that when pressed, delivered a timed shot of mains water to flush the toilet.  something not allowed here.

[Tennentslager]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

My recollection of American toilets, is they did not have flush cisterns, but rather a pushbutton, that when pressed, delivered a timed shot of mains water to flush the toilet.  something not allowed here.

Read the link above Dave, explains it all

BTW American public toilets are weird, in the stalls, doors start at knee height and finish at shoulder height and the gap between door jamb and at the fastening side is a good half inch, it’s almost if they design in a lack of privacy

 

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, Tennentslager said:

Read the link above Dave, explains it all

BTW American public toilets are weird, in the stalls, doors start at knee height and finish at shoulder height and the gap between door jamb and at the fastening side is a good half inch, it’s almost if they design in a lack of privacy

 

Definitely urinal flushes were mains on a timed button and I am sure WC flushes were the same.  this would have been in Chicago in about 1990

 

And yes I likened the stall doors to a saloon door.  I much preferred to do my No 2's in the privacy of my hotel room.