Vapour membrane > T.Frame walls.

[zoothorn]

@PeterW could you suggest whether the noggin idea of Onoff's, is being proposed as a 'belt & braces' "optional" "do it as well as can possibly be done" situation (because Onoff has very high standards, we all can see).. meaning I could get away ok without adding them..

 

or.. just what everyone experienced on here would do these additions automatically.

 

I cannot tell whether its being proposed as 'an absolutely fundamental neccesity' or more of an 'additional b&braces' recommendation.

[zoothorn]

@Onoff this clip I saved of a chap Ive seen many clips of, seems very experienced to me. Now his joist spacings look wider (maybe 400 centres, but only 50mm wide joists) & I don't see noggins. So therefore I gotta ask why not. If I discount him doing it wrong..

 

it implies, maybe, that you're recommendation is very good, but perhaps isn't entirely neccessary (esp for my humble workshop ceiling) ? would it be maybe more apt for top-notch-standard main rooms I wonder? I just don't know what to do/ how to proceed right now.

 

I'd appreciate any general thoughts chaps..

 

 

[zoothorn]

Can anyone help me out here? Do I need noggins or not, between pozi-joists.

 

As far as I can tell its dependent on A) distance between joists, & B) the thickness of plasterboard. Youtube pro clips using 15mm board, 100mm joists @ 600mm centres.. & no noggins. So wouldn't this be comparable to me using 12.5mm board, 100mm joists @ 400 centres?

 

Anyway for many reasons (alu side frame being one & 100mm W of joist to get thru being two) I can barely get one in, let alone 24x.

 

But are they needed in my case, is going without a problem? Onoff mentioned joint 'cracks' which is alarming.

 

Thanks- zoot.

[CC45]

did mine with this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XXL-Drywall-Lift-Sheetrock-Lift-Panel-Hoist-Plasterboard-Hoist-Mobile-Lift/332330056508?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D82dda4f3280c425c9cc424f0169a4446%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D30%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D372485192444%26itm%3D332330056508%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWeb&_trksid=p2386202.c100677.m4598

 

Not a quality build, but did the whole house and still plenty of use left in it.  Better than a knackered back. 

 

Buy one of these https://www.screwfix.com/p/roughneck-plasterboard-carrier/51509

 

Get a step near the lifter, walk up the step carrying the board and flop the board on the lifter.  I managed 15mm 8x4 sheets on my own this way and no knackered back.

 

[ToughButterCup]

22 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

...

Do I need noggins or not, between pozi-joists.

...

 

From your description of the YT video, your spec is higher - so the likely answer is that you dont need noggins. But, you may feel you need them anyway. There's next to no effort required in placing them. 

 

When @Onoff mentions a crack, he probably means a hairline fissure that only his gimlet eye can see.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

From your description of the YT video, your spec is higher - so the likely answer is that you dont need noggins. But, you may feel you need them anyway. There's next to no effort required in placing them. 

 

When @Onoff mentions a crack, he probably means a hairline fissure that only his gimlet eye can see.

 

Hi AB. Much appreciated reply from you!

 

The thing I can't concur with (& the chief reason I'm asking if nogs neccessary) is with my posi-joists the logistics of putting even 1 in, isn't 'next to no effort' as far as I can judge but the opposite, 'next to impossible'. If its a 50mm W 'stud' joist.. nogs are a breeze. 100mm W posi-types with alu sides to complicate fixing access tho.. & I'm up against it.

 

I think I'm gonna have to just go against Onoff's suggestion (even if it means hairline cracks- I can cope if only tiny) which is sacriledgeous & I'm ashamed & will tar & feather my nether regions pronto. But what can I do?

[zoothorn]

@CC45 that board lifter's the one mentioned before I think, nice one thanks. Its just shifting the bugger-on after via post the snag, being way out wild west here.

 

I did find a fine diy idea, using 2 hooks, in the clip I put up (^) so I'm gonna try this 1st & if it goes t*ts up.. (only 2060 H damn low/ in my favour for the job).

 

I do have a carrier placcy handle.  cheers alot. zoot

[Onoff]

So did you not bother asking your BCO? No need I guess now you have the answer you want.

[Onoff]

Btw, stop pm'ing me please. 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

So did you not bother asking your BCO? No need I guess now you have the answer you want.

 

No I went for a very long walk- wasn't feeling too great tbh. I will do tmrw.

 

Ok- will not pm you

[CC45]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

@CC45 that board lifter's the one mentioned before I think, nice one thanks. Its just shifting the bugger-on after via post the snag, being way out wild west here.

 

I did find a fine diy idea, using 2 hooks, in the clip I put up (^) so I'm gonna try this 1st & if it goes t*ts up.. (only 2060 H damn low/ in my favour for the job).

 

I do have a carrier placcy handle.  cheers alot. zoot

one of those lifters for £100 is worth every penny - are you doing a whole house?  If so - def.

[zoothorn]

14 hours ago, CC45 said:

one of those lifters for £100 is worth every penny - are you doing a whole house?  If so - def.

 

No only this 3.8 x 4m low ceiling to do, with just 3 full boards to put up. Id have bought one if I had another ceiling to do by now. I'm out of work so I need to £save every scrap.

 

I can maybe ask s'one to help lift up the 3 full boards > pin. Then I can maybe go alone, with hooks idea to get the rest up.

[ProDave]

Re this nogin thing.

 

Your issue appears to be you are nervous about how to attach them to the joists.

 

Don't.

 

This is what I have often done.  Fix one board.  That will leave the tapered edges of the board unsupported.  I then cut some bits of 6 by 1 timber that just fit between the jousts. Lay them one at a time on top of the board so they are half over the boad and half overhanging  Screw through the plasterboard with 2 or more screws.  that secures the "noggin" in place.  Do this for all the gaps between the joists.  Then when you put the next board up, screw through the edge again to catch the other side of the "nogin".  Just don't push very hard when doing that or you could burst the first set of screws.

 

All you are trying to do is support the otherwise unsupported joint to make it less likely you will get cracks.

 

I might be doing a small biut like this later so I will take a picture to show it better.

[zoothorn]

@ProDave aha this seems a good compromise, I get the idea. So they just provide a stabler 'meet' of boards to preventing any shifting of the edges.

 

I am going 12.5mm Fireline (straight-edge) boards though. Not T-Edge, so the boards maybe a bit sturdier on this long edge? (& BCO said Firelines are denser, so again sturdier than std 12.5mm). Still think I need any 'noggins' ?

 

I'm loathed to call him up in case he says 'yup/ whole hog/ joist-fixed-nogs pls'.. & he cannot tell surely once the ceiling up, if I didn't do exactly this but instead go your idea.

 

thanks, zoot

[ProDave]

Here you go, here is my "eezee nogin" method.

 

 

So imagine my battens are the bottom of your joists.  The plasterboard spans between the top (white) and bottom (green) battens leaving the edge unsupported.

 

In this case I have used a bit of OSB as the "noggin" fixed with 2 screws through the edge of the plasterboard.

 

When the next sheet goes on, 2 more screws fix through the edge of that into the "noggin"

 

Just be careful not to press hard with the screwdriver. It might be best to do those by hand rather than an electric driver and just let the screws bite and pull themself in.

 

[Onoff]

As to whether noggins are required:

 

 

This from the British Gypsum White Book.

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

@Onoff ok just seen this info- very informative. But I cannot make any sense of it, relative to the noggin suggestion you've been saying needs doing. This seems weird.. so likely not right. Or are you eluding to the fact that it says I do not need them, after all-??

 

Ok, unless I'm mistaken (highly probable) I read that I do not need noggins, with my 12.5mm board, looking at the table above, because it says 450mm Joist centres. And mine are 400mm (and surely they're being very wide @ 100mm is inherrant to the need, but this doesn't seem relevant).

 

So I'm not sure either what you are eluding to the answer should be, or able to see any other info on the table that contadicts what you have been suggesting I do. So I am in a further heap of confusion. And so I'm quite sure this reply will make you go insane.

 

Could you not say "look.. it says you need noggins" ? then I could ask 'I don't see that, can you explain for me? because doesn't it tell me that -I don't- need noggins?' (then you might answer 'no.. because A, B, C'. I might then say 'Aha ok got it!! thx').

[zoothorn]

I've looked at the pB job done upstairs (by builder) as surely this has to be a reference-point job for me. Surely if he's a pro & assuming its been done ok/ up to BRegs standard.

 

I know that joist centres are 400mm, & (crucially it seems to me, tho not mentioned) only 50mm wide.

 

What I find is gaps between fixings, on the long edges of board, all over the ceiling. So what can I conclude from this, its been done wrong?

[zoothorn]

Can anyone say whether that table tells me I need them or not? Ive looked at it for so long.. I just cannot understand. the wordings of these building tech tables/ seems utterly ambiguous to me.

 

My joist centres are 400mm. As far as my brain can process, the table says only 6mm board requires noggins.

 

Is this what Onoff is suggesting now-?? chrissakes this is doing my nut in.

[ToughButterCup]

46 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

...

So I'm not sure either what you are eluding to the answer should be, or able to see any other info on the table that contadicts what you have been suggesting I do. So I am in a further heap of confusion

....

 

 

Re-read Table 7 in @Onoff's response above. Look at the footnote to the table: 

You have 400 centres

I think @Onoff might be suggesting you decide for yourself on the basis of the evidence he presents. I can confirm that the information he presents is accurate .

 

Here is the link to the White Book ready for you to download

Almost every single post in BH is offered in good faith.

But after reading all the posts and thinking things through for ourselves,  every one of us has to take sole responsibility for what we do on our build, unless  we have consulted a properly qualified  professional who carries the appropriate level of Professional Insurance . 

[Onoff]

I had hoped you would pick up on the fire resistance bit.

 

In essence the plaster should fill the gaps that your builder has left reinforced with joint tape. Simply put the joints will not be as secure against fire or hairline cracking as if noggined.

 

Bottom line is you can generally do a better job yourself than many so called professionals. 

 

Do what @ProDave says. You have a solution. You could have done it by now.

[zoothorn]

Right thanks AB. That's some clarification. But the suggestion is, that the table provides answers not some smallprint additional info that I wasn't processing, because I was focussing so hard on the table.

 

I totally agree I have to think for myself etc. And that the replies are in good faith & I'll say this till the cows come home (apart from the chippy sniping at s'one just for not understanding that is). Hugely appreciated, but can sometimes not be too clear though.

 

Is that what the -whole/ & sole- point of @Onoff 's post then, just & solely this smallprinted sentence-? or was there additional stuff in the screenshot info I have meant to process?

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I had hoped you would pick up on the fire resistance bit.

 

In essence the plaster should fill the gaps that your builder has left reinforced with joint tape. Simply put the joints will not be as secure against fire or hairline cracking as if noggined.

 

Bottom line is you can generally do a better job yourself than many so called professionals. 

 

Do what @ProDave says. You have a solution. You could have done it by now.

 

No no, its 3 weeks now to get the pB I think. I'm only just able to order (1+ week prep on how-to-do-job, so my pB choice, plus sorting cabin xyz to add on order) let alone start it. prolly 30 min prep for you.

 

Ok understand clearer you're suggestion is therefore a better finish than my builder's done. Ok got it. Which to my brain is sort of counter-intuitive tho if he's a pro & I'm a novice, but I do see the logic (mainly makes me concerned re. the pB he's done tho, if it looks shoddy to me..).

 

thanks- zH

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

That's it, right there. '... info that I wasn't processing because ...'

At the moment you sometimes appear to;

• information grab - rather than read some posts with care and discrimination
• try to control  too many things - when nobody (even @Jeremy Harris) can do that
• and so you tend to lack the confidence to try some things for yourself - sometimes just a little courage is needed to make a tiny bit of progress
• which leads to another urgent - sounding post.

And so the cycle repeats itself.

Can I respectfully suggest you pause for a few minutes before clicking the  Submit Reply button? And try to re-read your post before you do press that button?

 

Nope I'm not having this AB. I missed the point of what Onoff was getting at -not- because I wasn't processing due to the lectured-reasons you say, but, because as I believe it was Onoff testing to see if I could 'find the clue' (I suspect was the reason he didn't refer directly to the info that was given -within- the bigger picture) rather than 'look, btm, where it says xyz' which as a novice to all this, I actually need.

 

I'm not keen at all on this condascending tone with bullet-points picking at personal inadequacies AB. Its not needed, or helpful. Just let me get on with my thread alone, please. If I flounder away & you can see it, maybe just try & help & forget the criticising eh? its what the others who offer help invariably do; but you seem the exception. And the only one a moderator. Mmm.. now, what conclusions do -I- draw from this that I could eleaborate into a condascending few lines & press 'send' -?

 

Thanks- zH

[Declan52]

Your last thread got shut down because of this type of reply so unless you want this one too follow suit keep to the subject in hand.