Open plan conundrum! Real life input required

[SuperJohnG]

We have the architect coming for a meeting on friday, he has done some initial designs and we are just going through iterations but currently facing a conundrum we are finding it hard to resolve. 

 

See layout below, we have a very large open plot and hence can position our house anywhere, layout also included below of house position on plot. We are ticking most boxes but we are struggling with our open plan area. 

 

The brief being - nice big open plan area, but when we are sitting in the living room area of the open plan area - we don't want to feel like we are in the kitchen. The First revision looks like below, which was not bad - but we want to modify it as I want the island located right next to a set of bi folds so I can float in and out while bbq'ing without feeling like I'm walking through the living room. I had completed this - see second and third layout, but still struggling a little getting it to feel right. We are trying to add a partition to mount a tv and split the room up slightly and zone the areas, as we feel this is what we need, but everywhere I put it seems like a hindrance. I can't make it bigger again as the house has already went from 200-260 m^2 (eek!) 

 

So I'm not really sure what I'm asking, possibly real world experiences of a completed build compared to when you were doing the design?. Will it still feel cosy if I don't zone the room up and we are worrying too much about it not feeling cosy and it'll be fine! any other advice? 

 

Other thing I should add is that the shape needs to stay as this annex gets sun all day in winter and summer and works really well for our view, its just a difficulty dividing it up. Hopefully once this is done I can get the full design up in a week or two and show you all.  Also FYI, it's a standard height room so not double height or anything. 

 

 

Layout 2: Ignore weird line between the island and wall its a dimension between the island and the wall units (which stop just at larder door)

 

 

Layout 3:

 

 

Site layout: orientated to north, so annex  points to SW (or SWW if you're really looking hard!) 

 

 

 

Overall design: Still some changes to be made, but pretty pleased with the architects work against my design brief so far. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by SuperJohnG
My horrific grammar.

[ProDave]

I think you are over thinking the family room.  I prefer layout 1. the point is, you have the separate lounge for when you want to be away from the kitchen.  That lounge imho wants a much bigger window in the end wall.

 

On another point, I would move your stairs so they are more in the middle of the right hand wing.  At the moment you arrive at the top of the stairs with a long corridor.  I would want to arrive at a central staircase with a bedroom either side of the stairs.  It would also separate the downstairs bedroom from the snug.

[SuperJohnG]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I think you are over thinking the family room.  I prefer layout 1. the point is, you have the separate lounge for when you want to be away from the kitchen.  That lounge imho wants a much bigger window in the end wall.

 

On another point, I would move your stairs so they are more in the middle of the right hand wing.  At the moment you arrive at the top of the stairs with a long corridor.  I would want to arrive at a central staircase with a bedroom either side of the stairs.  It would also separate the downstairs bedroom from the snug.

@ProDave thanks for the feedback. I had considered moving the stairs. But it would kind of mess with the double height area right above you as you walk in. The guest bedroom is a complete PITA, I want one so people will visit and stay  but it's not big enough upstairs to accomodate it. It's only just next to the living room they are currently separated by cupboards? (Assuming you're  saying the snug is the play room/living room. Did actually like the windows at the end but might make it bigger so you see right down the hall from.the entrance to outside. Was planning a big TV in there. 

 

[Temp]

I also prefer option 1. However.. it's a bit narrow at 3.218m and the sofa at the top might be too far from the TV so I suggest..

 

Moving the partition between living and kitchen a bit to the right making living wider and kitchen smaller. 

 

Move sofa at the top down so you can walk behind it to get ffrom kitchen to BBQ area. Also makes nearer TV and other sofa.

 

Double check the size of furniture on drawings because some architects drawings of three seater sofas are the size of some two seater. 

[AliG]

@Temp is absolutely right on the drawing sizes.

 

I copied the pic into Acrobat so I could scale from it. the sofas as shown are 1.8m long and 0.6m deep. A three seater sofa is normally around 2.2m long and 1m deep. The sofas would be corner to corner and fill almost the whole area at the top of the room in option one.

 

The dining table size looks more correct at 1.8x0.9m and the island is only 1m wide which is not the full depth of two cupboards.

 

One of my personal design rules is that you shouldn't walk into a tight area at the entrance to a room if possible and that you shouldn't be presented with a poor view of a room when you come through the door. Option 1 fails both of these rules as you come through the door right into the kitchen area which is likely to be busy and have dishes etc. Imagine guests coming in and having to pass you cooking away to get to the table or sitting area. Also the divider is just odd as shown the space between the wall and island is tiny.

 

Option 3 is a non starter, you walk into the room looking at a wall and putting the cabinets under the window means that you cannot use the wall space.

 

I would adjust option 2, which I like as when you come through the door your eye will be naturally drawn across the room to the window and you enter into the clearest part of the room. You can get to the dining, sitting or kitchen areas all easily from there  without passing through an area you don't need to be in. There is basically an entrance area in the kitchen.

 

The adjustment I would make is to the double door and larder door. Due to the larder door, you end up with only a 2.4m run of 4 wall units, that is tight. I would change the kitchen door to a door and a half so you can still open it up wider if necessary. Then I would move the larder door along next to it and you can fit a 3.6m run of cabinets, making the larder slightly longer. Currently the larder door is shown as 900mm, it probably only has to be a 700mm door as it is a cupboard basically. If you move the kitchen door to closer to the corner you could still probably fit 2x800mm doors, but as the second door is usually not used in this design, we have two double doors where we only use one of then 99% of the time, then a door and a half might be better as you can have the doors be 900mm and 450mm.

 

With design 2 you have a nice clear run down the middle to the BBQ. I would put the TV between the two sofas (in front of the window or on the wall to the right) as you will be able to see it from the dining table there and also if standing at the sink/hob.

 

Putting the back of the sofa to the kitchen in this design creates a natural break without the bulk of a wall. If you put the other sofa at 90 degrees to this sofa then you cannot see the kitchen from either sofa. and have the option of putting the tv in the corner. Our kitchen is arranged as three distinct areas like this just using the furniture and no walls. The key is not to be looking at the kitchen when sitting on the sofa, we have an l-shaped sofa rather than two sofas.

 

I bbq a lot and had exactly the same thoughts about having a clear line to the bbq area from the kitchen when designing our kitchen. I think the main thing is not the distance but it being a clear shot which it is in option 2.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by AliG

[AliG]

I have roughly annotated the plans.

 

The area to look at is the sofas as they are much bigger than shown on the plan, when I scaled them up it looked like a chair plus sofa may work better, but it depends on the bulkiness of your chosen furniture.

 

I would also increase the space between the island and wall units to 1.4m as it gives more room to open doors etc.

 

In my design the end of the island and wall units would not line up which I think looks much better.

 

BTW the rest of the design is excellent. Only change I would suggest is turn one of the cupboards on the playroom around to be a wardrobe for the bedroom. 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by AliG

[ToughButterCup]

Translating  2d to 3d in your head is hard.

 

Get the design rendered in a 3d design program. SketchUp  will do. Run the full program on your desktop and install a Sketchup viewer on your phone and tablet. With a bit of practice you'll soon be moving around in 3d.

Not perfect,  but a big help.

[Ferdinand]

I am limiting myself to your particular point mainly.

 

In Layout 1, if you want to feel there is a stronger distinction between the family area and the kitchen, consider making the kitchen more of an L shape rather than a galley, with a wall or short run of tall units splitting the k from the f. Your divider could  be 1,2m or 1.8m or full height and as long as you like, but needs to prevent the view of eg piles of washing up from the family room.

 

I am not sure how high the existing partition is, but with an L shape the feel will be more of the kitchen turning it's back on the family area, to be self contained.

 

With that feel  the family area could develop a "snug" atmosphere.

 

I think I might also look at making the family are a but more generous by shrinking the kitchen a bit.

 

One more: on your spare room consider where you will be should you end up disabled or 86. Write some use cases considering the rest of your life, or at least how long you have a realistic expectation of staying in this house.

 

Lots of other stuff to comment on, but others have done that really well.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

Edited February 6, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Roz]

You could try putting it into a 3d room designer like https://roomstyler.com/3dplanner , the 3d image it generates can give you a feel for the space when you have put the furniture in it, and you can move your walls and windows around. I found this easier than sketchup! but its not always the easiest to get accurate but it gives you an idea

[SuperJohnG]

13 hours ago, Temp said:

I also prefer option 1. However.. it's a bit narrow at 3.218m and the sofa at the top might be too far from the TV so I suggest..

 

Moving the partition between living and kitchen a bit to the right making living wider and kitchen smaller. 

 

Move sofa at the top down so you can walk behind it to get ffrom kitchen to BBQ area. Also makes nearer TV and other sofa.

 

Double check the size of furniture on drawings because some architects drawings of three seater sofas are the size of some two seater. 

 

@Temp good idea with the walking behind I might check it out and the key info on furniture size.

 

12 hours ago, AliG said:

@Temp is absolutely right on the drawing sizes.

 

One of my personal design rules is that you shouldn't walk into a tight area at the entrance to a room if possible and that you shouldn't be presented with a poor view of a room when you come through the door.

 

I would adjust option 2, which I like as when you come through the door your eye will be naturally drawn across the room to the window and you enter into the clearest part of the room. You can get to the dining, sitting or kitchen areas all easily from there  without passing through an area you don't need to be in. There is basically an entrance area in the kitchen.

 

@AliG fantastic input and it's been the main point I've been trying to get away from walking through areas, in my head I wanmted to retain exactly what you were saying on walking into the room and seeing the whole view unobscured. I will have two sets of bi-folds/sliding doors and a big picture windows so I want all that outside view to come in.

 

12 hours ago, AliG said:

12 hours ago, AliG said:

@Temp is absolutely right on the drawing sizes.

 

The adjustment I would make is to the double door and larder door. Due to the larder door, you end up with only a 2.4m run of 4 wall units, that is tight. I would change the kitchen door to a door and a half so you can still open it up wider if necessary. Then I would move the larder door along next to it and you can fit a 3.6m run of cabinets, making the larder slightly longer. Currently the larder door is shown as 900mm, it probably only has to be a 700mm door as it is a cupboard basically. If you move the kitchen door to closer to the corner you could still probably fit 2x800mm doors, but as the second door is usually not used in this design, we have two double doors where we only use one of then 99% of the time, then a door and a half might be better as you can have the doors be 900mm and 450mm.

 

With design 2 you have a nice clear run down the middle to the BBQ. I would put the TV between the two sofas (in front of the window or on the wall to the right) as you will be able to see it from the dining table there and also if standing at the sink/hob.

 

Putting the back of the sofa to the kitchen in this design creates a natural break without the bulk of a wall. If you put the other sofa at 90 degrees to this sofa then you cannot see the kitchen from either sofa. and have the option of putting the tv in the corner. Our kitchen is arranged as three distinct areas like this just using the furniture and no walls. The key is not to be looking at the kitchen when sitting on the sofa, we have an l-shaped sofa rather than two sofas.

 

I bbq a lot and had exactly the same thoughts about having a clear line to the bbq area from the kitchen when designing our kitchen. I think the main thing is not the distance but it being a clear shot which it is in option 2.

I'd also planned to move the larder up and was heading that direction with units. We actually are hoping not to have doors leading in there, just a wide opening (I haven't checked building regulations yet...)as I felt that immediately linked the vestibule to this open area and made it feel bigger.  Great shouts on the couches too, thanks for the input it is very helpful.

 

 

6 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Translating  2d to 3d in your head is hard.

 

Get the design rendered in a 3d design program. SketchUp  will do. Run the full program on your desktop and install a Sketchup viewer on your phone and tablet. With a bit of practice you'll soon be moving around in 3d.

Not perfect,  but a big help.

 

 

2 hours ago, Roz said:

You could try putting it into a 3d room designer like https://roomstyler.com/3dplanner , the 3d image it generates can give you a feel for the space when you have put the furniture in it, and you can move your walls and windows around. I found this easier than sketchup! but its not always the easiest to get accurate but it gives you an idea

 

@AnonymousBosch @Roz once we finalise layout we will get it in 3D to check it all. I'm ok with it as I spend all day reading/ doing 3D and 2D drawings. thanks for the tips.

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I am limiting myself to your particular point mainly.

 

In Layout 1, if you want to feel there is a stronger distinction between the family area and the kitchen, consider making the kitchen more of an L shape rather than a galley, with a wall or short run of tall units splitting the k from the f. Your divider could  be 1,2m or 1.8m or full height and as long as you like, but needs to prevent the view of eg piles of washing up from the family room.

 

I am not sure how high the existing partition is, but with an L shape the feel will be more of the kitchen turning it's back on the family area, to be self contained.

 

With that feel  the family area could develop a "snug" atmosphere.

 

I think I might also look at making the family are a but more generous by shrinking the kitchen a bit.

 

One more: on your spare room consider where you will be should you end up disabled or 86. Write some use cases considering the rest of your life, or at least how long you have a realistic expectation of staying in this house.

 

Ferdinand

@Ferdinand The L shape is a good idea and I did see a nice layout which may work too, defo like the idea. The future input is good too as maybe in 50 years I'll be living in that guest room. Although In my head  ultimately one of the kids would get this house and we would build another on the site all on the level for us.

 

 

Really great input everyone and has helped significantly to get some further input, I'll try a few layouts later in autocad. much appreciated as always. 

[Temp]

18 hours ago, AliG said:

@Temp is absolutely right on the drawing sizes.

 

Should also check dining table if not done.

 

The symbols look identical to those our architect used. I reckon they were invented for estate agents to make houses look bigger. Bit like using small kids to make a car look bigger.

 

 

[SuperJohnG]

All, 

 

I thought I would give an update to help any others in the future, we have now updated the design and here's where we are currently (see below). We have peace with the open plan area and now made it fully vaulted inside and moved the master bedroom, which has helped with the overall flow and proportions. There is still some tweaking of the larder length and door into that area, the void area/ balustrade overlooking open plan area will be removed.  I'm also doing a bit of a cost vs benefit on the dormers. But getting there! In great news though...the huge BBQ canopy stays.. as obviously now it doesn't affect the view from bedroom and also will help with solar gain.

 

Thanks to @AliG @Ferdinand @ProDave @Temp @AnonymousBosch @Roz for the input.

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by SuperJohnG
added thanks.

[Mr Punter]

Will smoke from the BBQ not blow into the house?

[SuperJohnG]

5 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Will smoke from the BBQ not blow into the house?

@Mr Punter who doesn't love the smell of BBQ.....

 

but in all seriousness, its a big deck area, so it can go anywhere.