Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I have for the last year or more been assuming that I would have an insulated-concrete-raft floor in my modern bungalow, but I am now having second thoughts. The alternative is to have a timber-cassette floor *. But I have a constraint which is making me re-consider things: height: a ridge-height limit **. Anything that I can do to lower my dwelling's height is attractive as I am struggling to get under the limit. A timber-cassette floor filled with PIR could easily be 200mm thinner ***. The reason I favoured a concrete raft was that I felt a timber-cassette floor may well feel insubstantial, hollow and flex. But… am I wrong? Can a timber floor be made or feel as solid as a concrete floor? For example, would something as simple as a biscuit screed do the job (I have never seen one)? I would be grateful for your thoughts. - - - (* By the way, my foundations will be screw piles. The floor will have no direct contact with the ground surface.) (** And I have a no-dig requirement too.) (*** The build-up of the concrete-raft floor will be 775mm for a U-value 0.10 W/m².k, as follows: small pea shingle 50 mm, Cellcore HX-S heave protection 225, EPS 300 mm, reinforced concrete raft 200 mm.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I would stick to an insulated concrete floor. just dig deeper and start the insulation deeper down so your ground floor level is lower. It will be a LOT harder making (in effect) a sunken timber floor. that will need ventilated space underneath it and air bricks etc so is not the normal way to go if you are trying to get your finished floor level lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ProDave said: just dig deeper Oh but I cannot dig down. I have a no-dig requirement because of protected tree roots. I have learnt that "no dig" really means "don't dig very much" so I can probably dig down 200mm or so when I am levelling the site. 200mm will take the heave-protection CellCore HX-S at least. A timber floor would start just above ground level. Edited February 1, 2020 by Dreadnaught Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 16 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said: Oh but I cannot dig down. I have a no-dig requirement because of protected tree roots. I have learnt that "no dig" really means "don't dig very much" so I can probably dig down 200mm or so when I am levelling the site. 200mm will take the heave-protection CellCore HX-S at least. A timber floor would start just above ground level. What is the span the floor has to bridge? If going timber I would suggest sleeper walls, but that will need digging. How are you supporting the house with no dig? I presume screw piles and a ring beam? Could you add to that to make sleeper walls for intermediate support of a timber floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 19 minutes ago, ProDave said: What is the span the floor has to bridge? Max span is about 5.8 metres. If that span was problematic, I presume it would be quite straight forward to specify an extra screw pile or two. 20 minutes ago, ProDave said: I presume screw piles and a ring beam? Yes screw piles. The floor will have no direct contact with the ground surface. 22 minutes ago, ProDave said: Could you add to that to make sleeper walls for intermediate support of a timber floor? Yes, I presume so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 We have timber floors spanning 5 metres, JJI joists at 400 centres downstairs and posi joists at 600 centres upstairs. Both about 300mm thick. If you could get an extra sleeper wall mid span on some extra screw piles that would bring the span down to 2.9 metres and should let you get a thinner floor make up. A timber floor spanning 2.9 metres should be quite solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 Thanks @ProDave, as always. Good thoughts. Why do you have a timber floor downstairs? Do you get much underfoot flex? Do you have a screed? I am wondering if that would change how it feels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Would a beam and block floor if possible, not be better than timber? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 21 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said: Thanks @ProDave, as always. Good thoughts. Why do you have a timber floor downstairs? Do you get much underfoot flex? Do you have a screed? I am wondering if that would change how it feels. Opposite problem to you. Sloping site. Ground floor level determined by garage floor level plus step up into the house. This meant at the far corner, FFL is over a metre above finished ground level and that is after raising the ground level at that side of the site. Then add it we already had to dig off a lot of soft organic top soil, it would have been a LOT if inert fill to bring onto site to build it up that much to make a solid floor. I actually "made it worse" by specifying to the SE that I did not want sleeper walls (I was trying to simplify the ground works and foundations) The floors have turned out very well. Yes they do bounce, like any timber floor but not excessively. Mostly engineered oak with some slate downstairs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, Vijay said: Would a beam and block floor if possible, not be better than timber? Now that's an unexpected suggestion, worth exploring! Thank you. Supported on the screw piles? How to insulate, PIR insulation above somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, ProDave said: The floors have turned out very well. Yes they do bounce, like any timber floor but not excessively. Mostly engineered oak with some slate downstairs. Thanks ProDave. Very helpful information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said: Now that's an unexpected suggestion, worth exploring! Thank you. Supported on the screw piles? How to insulate, PIR insulation above somehow? You will have problems with depth as you’ll end up with a floor of about 360mm or more to do that span and still have a bounce. Concrete beam and block floors are not as strong as some think. Go with a JJI / Posi at 300 centres and you’ll have no bounce. It will be 245mm joists IIRC and you’ll need to insulate between and possibly above to get to BRegs levels of insulation. Bigger issue may be the bottom of the beams being exposed to damp/cold. Have you considered making some sort of cassette type floor with 300mm Posijoists and OSB and then pumping it full of cellulose ..? Add 25mm battens / timbers and UFH in sand/cement and you’ll get the best of both worlds in terms of feel under foot and insulation 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 29 minutes ago, PeterW said: Have you considered making some sort of cassette type floor with 300mm Posijoists and OSB and then pumping it full of cellulose ..? Add 25mm battens / timbers and UFH in sand/cement and you’ll get the best of both worlds in terms of feel under foot and insulation Thanks @PeterW. Interesting suggestion. Will explore. One question: why "Add 25mm battens / timbers", what are they for? (Its a ground floor.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said: Thanks @PeterW. Interesting suggestion. Will explore. One question: why "Add 25mm battens / timbers", what are they for? (Its a ground floor.) The 25mm battens will allow you to lay ufh pipes and then cover it in a biscuit mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said: Thanks @PeterW. Interesting suggestion. Will explore. One question: why "Add 25mm battens / timbers", what are they for? (Its a ground floor.) Sand and cement or pug mix will act as a short term heat store and even out the heating from the UFH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Declan52 said: The 25mm battens will allow you to lay ufh pipes and then cover it in a biscuit mix. Ah, I'm slow on the uptake. So a 1:8-biscuit-mix screed does not form the final floor surface. It is battened out and a final floor surface (e.g. Egger Protect) is added above it. [Bottom] Deck 1 → Joists (filled with insulation) → Deck 2→ Battens, biscuit screed & UFH pipes → Deck 3 [Top] Is that right? Edited February 1, 2020 by Dreadnaught 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 That is the floor make up I have. this shows what Peter is describing The engineered oak floor then spans across the battens. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) Ah I see. Thanks @ProDave. Would the final floor covering need to be structural? LVT would not work? Edited February 1, 2020 by Dreadnaught 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said: Ah I see. Thanks @ProDave. Would the final floor covering need to be structural? LVT would not work? Yes it needs to be structural. The pug mix is only supported on thin OSB sheeting. For LVT lay a chipboard floor first. At 400mm centres 18mm would do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 Thanks @ProDave. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Dreadnaught said: Ah, I'm slow on the uptake. So a 1:8-biscuit-mix screed does not form the final floor surface. It is battened out and a final floor surface (e.g. Egger Protect) is added above it. [Bottom] Deck 1 → Joists (filled with insulation) → Deck 2→ Battens, biscuit screed & UFH pipes → Deck 3 [Top] Is that right? nope missing a layer of OSB..! OSB > Joists (with insulation) > OSB > Battens and pug mix > DPC > Floor finish Top finish could be engineered wood or 9mm tile backer plus tiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I think there’s nothing stopping you putting a floating ufh system on the top should you have the space, provided that you have sufficient insulation in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Our ground floor is supported on steel beams connected to steel posts with the whole thing between .5m and 2.4m above the sloping ground. Our build up is concrete board-battons for ventilation-vpl-joists with insulation - plywood floor - DPL - battons,UFH,biscuit mix and then whatever we decide for final floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplysimon Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 i think you will have to go up to 300mm beams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 46 minutes ago, redtop said: Our build up is concrete board-battons for ventilation-vpl-joists with insulation Interesting. Is concrete board the same as cement fibre board? What type of insulation did you use? Were the joists timber I-beams? VPL, is that a VCL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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