"Caber+" floor to fit/ Q's.

[PeterW]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Hi joe90- was gonna do that, mainly for sound containing/ thought I had to put the orange stuff betwwen joinsts tbh for building regs re. insulation anyway.

That is irrelevant. ...!!! Building regs require you to insulate that floor / ceiling as it is a ceiling above an unheated space ... you have no choice and it should be a very good insulation layer. 

[zoothorn]

Yes I'm looking into this (3rd job, after electrics tho): I'm thinking get rockwool-sound-slab stuff between the joists (easy), & actually within them too? here's the tricky bit: they have a frame design, each joist has a btm/top of timber & alu zzz shaped sides.. prolly only just get a typical dickension child slave's hand in.

[zoothorn]

13 minutes ago, PeterW said:

That is irrelevant. ...!!! Building regs require you to insulate that floor / ceiling as it is a ceiling above an unheated space ... you have no choice and it should be a very good insulation layer. 

 

I'm confused by almost every word of this..

 

Sorry but exactly what are you referring to as irrelevant?

 

I understand the floor has to be insulated (Ive clearly outlined doing exactly this in my posts/ then removing afterwards & re-using, again should be clear as to my idea).

 

"ceiling as it is a ceiling above an unheated space ... you have no choice and it should be a very good insulation layer". Sorry but this is not possible to understand. 'ceiling as it is a ceiling..' eh?

 

And 'unheated space'-? every room built is an unheated space, until you choose to put a heater in or choose not to- no?

[PeterW]

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I'm confused by almost every word of this..

 

Sorry but exactly what are you referring to as irrelevant?

 

I understand the floor has to be insulated (Ive clearly outlined doing exactly this in my posts/ then removing afterwards & re-using, again should be clear as to my idea).

 

"ceiling as it is a ceiling above an unheated space ... you have no choice and it should be a very good insulation layer". Sorry but this is not possible to understand. 'ceiling as it is a ceiling..' eh?

 

And 'unheated space'-? every room built is an unheated space, until you choose to put a heater in or choose not to- no?

OK...

 

your workshop especially without floor insulation is classed as an unheated space as the floor and door won’t meet the minimum for building regs. 
 

BCO is recommending you up the thickness in the walls to compensate for the floor having 50mm, so basically he’s using the uValues to offset each other  

 

The space between the joists between your Unheated workshop and the heated bedroom

needs to meet building regulations which will be a minimum of 250mm of fibre insulation, or about 130mm of Celotex or similar. 

If you don’t, your new bedroom will be like a fridge and you’ll lose heat like it’s going out of fashion through the floor. 

  

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

OK...

 

your workshop without floor insulation is classed as an unheated space as the floor and door won’t meet the minimum for building regs. 
 

BCO is recommending you up the thickness in the walls to compensate for the floor having 50mm, so basically he’s using the uValues to offset each other  

 

The space between the joists between your Unheated workshop and the heated bedroom

needs to meet building regulations which will be a minimum of 250mm of fibre insulation, or about 130mm of Celotex or similar. 

If you don’t, your new bedroom will be like a fridge and you’ll lose heat like it’s going out of fashion through the floor. 

  

 

Eh?

 

But/ so.. you're saying if it has -got- floor insulation, then its not classed as an unheated space (which means the last two whole sentences ^ are n/a.. I just don't understand why you'd write them). It was always going to have 100mm poly insulation. Ive mentioned this (& the 50mm Im allowed to go) in almost every post.

 

How can you possibly conclude, that I'll have an "unheated space", if I state as clear as day.. that I'm putting in 50mm floor insulation???

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Eh?

 

But/ so.. you're saying if it has -got- floor insulation, then its not classed as an unheated space (which means the last two whole sentences ^ are n/a.. I just don't understand why you'd write them). It was always going to have 100mm poly insulation. Ive mentioned this (& the 50mm Im allowed to go) in almost every post.

 

How can you possibly conclude, that I'll have an "unheated space", if I state as clear as day.. that I'm putting in 50mm floor insulation???

 

 

 

 

 

ok in building regulations terms, you have an unheated space under a heated space. 
 

You need to insulate the space between the ceiling and the floor above. That’s a building regs requirement. 
 

I would personally never remove insulation that was required by building regulations under a floor - it’s there for a reason and I wouldn’t do it especially if it had to be where I worked but that’s your choice not mine. 
 

The advice I’m giving is based on building regulations - if you’re not happy with it, ask your BCO but they will probably ask for more. 
 

I have no idea why you would want to try and build to less than building regulations, they are a minimum standard and not exactly onerous. 
 

 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW

 

The problem I have is that you keep repeating that I have an unheated space (lower room). Its unnoquivocally established that I just do not. Just before, in the post with the two words in bold you contradict yourself (Ive never read such a contradiction, in my 48 yrs)..

 

 

You state (assuming that I didn't know, but very simple to understand/ known for a month) why Ive been told to go up to 140mm C'tex in walls because Im going less in the floor (not 100mm.. but 50mm). So the statement is made that I am putting in insulation, in your own words.

 

But..

 

The very next paragraph (with the two words in bold).. you state the total opposite: that I have an unheated room below a heated room!

 

I do not have an unheated room (according to you). So why on earth would you say immediately after that I do??

 

[unless you're referring to the situation -after- the BCO has signed it off > & I undo it?? in which case no rules apply anyway.. bewildering!!].

[PeterW]

Ok so crack on with your build - stick some photos up when it’s done and let us know when the BCO signs it all off as I’ve tried giving you the benefit of 30 years of experience but apparently you know better so carry on. 
 

 

[zoothorn]

Can someone help out here. There's a massive miscommunication, or I cannot understand PeteW's syntax.. or something very odd happening.

 

One question for now.

 

I have a ground floor room with 1x door/ 1x window, a concrete floor slab > 50mm insulation + 22mm chipboard floor, timber-frame walls filled with 140mm of insulation > plasterboarded.. & a ceiling of joists filled with typical orange loft insulation > plasterboarded. The BCO has determined, in u-value terms, the insulation to be as said.

 

Is this room determined to be A) unheated, or B) heated ?

 

Thanks.

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok so crack on with your build - stick some photos up when it’s done and let us know when the BCO signs it all off as I’ve tried giving you the benefit of 30 years of experience but apparently you know better so carry on. 
 

 

 

I dont Peter! please dont assume I'm telling you anything of the sort! you keep assuming xyz (that I didn't know why I was told to put 140mm in walls for eg). Please don't assume I'm anything but trying desperately to pick my way through your info.

 

I just cannot understand what you are saying/ I'm tearing my hair out trying to understand your posts. If I can only read what seems to me to be you saying in one sentence I have a heated room, then the next that I have an unheated room.. I'm left thoughrally confused. Please, it just needs you to clarify. That's all. You are likely not saying both these things.. but only one.

[zoothorn]

Can anyone else just help out here.

 

Do I have a "heated" room, or an "unheated" room?

[epsilonGreedy]

31 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can anyone else just help out here.

 

Do I have a "heated" room, or an "unheated" room?

 

 

I think @PeterWis saying your workshop will fail to make the minimum thermal standard from the point of view of building standards. However since it is intended to be used as a workshop you can get a free pass by having the workshop rated as a cold space in the thermal assessment. Now you will technically have a cold space below the bedroom hence building standards oblige you to have a fully insulated ceiling space. The fact that you are trying to make your workshop a warmish space is of no relevance to building standards.

 

In your position I would give up entirely on insulating the floor because 1.9m is an absurdly low ceiling. An extra 4" or 100mm is a critical gain in height to make this workshop a viable space.

[newhome]

To to clarify ... building control have told you what is acceptable in terms of insulation both in the walls and the floor.  

 

You plan to do this to achieve building control sign off but then may rip up the floor and remove a layer of insulation to give you more headroom. That immediately means that your lower room won't meet building regulations. 

 

I think what @PeterW is saying is that it will then be treated as an unheated room and UNLESS you significantly increase the insulation between the 2 floors the bedroom will therefore be very cold. Even if you don't rip up the additional insulation it will be better to improve the insulation between floors so what when you heat your bedroom that heat isn't escaping into the room downstairs. 

 

I think you have a hard choice to make between better insulation and more headroom. Removing 100mm of insulation may make the room much colder but you will not gain a great deal of headroom either so it's your call to make. 

 

[Roundtuit]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Can anyone else just help out here.

 

Do I have a "heated" room, or an "unheated" room?

 

I know plans are a bit 'fluid', but you did tell us it was to have no heating...

 

[zoothorn]

On 08/01/2020 at 22:28, newhome said:

To to clarify ... building control have told you what is acceptable in terms of insulation both in the walls and the floor.  

 

You plan to do this to achieve building control sign off but then may rip up the floor and remove a layer of insulation to give you more headroom.

 

 

 

 

(hi chaps- sorry ill yesterday). This (^) I perfectly understand, & is the position I am in..

 

But to continue saying by "but it will not meet building regs if I rip up the floor.." is so bafflingly not applicable I cannot understand why you are even mentioning it.

 

I know of course it won't meet building regs once I rip up the floor, but its of no consequence if its been signed off!

 

so why anyone is talking about this stage after having been signed off (& deemed an 'unheated room' then? I don't know, but why should I care if BCO isn't visiting anymore-??) as if it has consequences.. is utterly bewildering!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

I just need to to go back a step, & simply ask again:

 

Is it feasable to lay the board floor on the 50mm C'tex (the BCO's demand), without using the glue stuff?

If they're glued together I assume I cannot rip the floor up & / or will have stuck to the C'tex sheets ruining them too.

 

Many thanks chaps.

Edited January 10, 2020 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

On 08/01/2020 at 22:40, Roundtuit said:

 

I know plans are a bit 'fluid', but you did tell us it was to have no heating...

 

 

Hi Roundtuit- but if you are referring to a 'heating system' I don't think this matters from the BCO pov. He just checks the build & then its my decision is I put in electric rads, gas rads, whatever rads.

 

I have had many visits from the BCO: not once has he mentioned "heating", "heated room" or "unheated room".. or asked what I plan to put in either room with regard to radiators.

 

I'm not quite sure why you're mentioning the heating.. unless you're referring to these two words 'heated-room' & 'unheated-room'? (which afaict are getting me completely & unneccessarily very confused).

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Is it feasable to lay the board floor on the 50mm C'tex (the BCO's demand), without using the glue stuff?

The answer is yes. I would put a few packers around the edge to prevent it moving and leave doing it until very close to your BCO visit. I'll add that you're in a difficult position re the insulation because of the ceiling height but I would put something insulating between the concrete and wood flooring if you are removing the Celotex.

[jfb]

You can get 20mm and even 10mm sheets of xps insulation if the ceiling height is really important. Something like this.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Warm-Pro-XPS-Insulation-Board-XPS_Pro.htm

 

And I have to say that this thread has provided some vintage back and forth between you and Peter!

 

[zoothorn]

22 hours ago, jfb said:

You can get 20mm and even 10mm sheets of xps insulation if the ceiling height is really important. Something like this.

https://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Warm-Pro-XPS-Insulation-Board-XPS_Pro.htm

 

And I have to say that this thread has provided some vintage back and forth between you and Peter!

 

 

Ok thanks for the link here. But again I'm left not exactly sure of my floor situation, & the suggestion/ link provided.  So, are you:

 

1. suggesting this could be a substitute for my 50mm C'tex my BCO has specified me use @ a similar 50mm thickness?
2. suggesting a thinner substitute to my 50mm (in wehich case IOd need top ask my BCO > who'd likely just say "no- I said 50mm C'tex/ do what I sday or I get in a huff, ok?") ?
3. suggesting this can be used instead of both materials, the 22mm board & the 50mm C'tex-? (in which case I can't.. bc I have my two materials paid for/ stacked ready) ?
4. or suggesting this could be used on my ceiling-?

 

PeterW's been the most helpful to me of all, over my threads (& Onoff et al) but I get stuck when I cannot understand something he writes (& try my hardest to explain why its ambiguous to read), nothing more than that, & he > takes offence > says do it my way/ you know best then > & gone. Catch22. I wasn't ever trying to counter his information with my own (how could I, if I make it crystal clear I'm a newbie, trying to learn the basics: Id never be so audacious / arrogant?).. I was just frustrated at not understanding X which wasn't made too clear, asking, but it not being clarified.

 

Information is hugely appreciated.. but if its not clear (seemingly in the building arena with 1000's of items & methods) it can be extremely difficult to comprehend with only limited skills.

 

Thanks all- zoot.

[zoothorn]

On 10/01/2020 at 15:45, PeterStarck said:

The answer is yes. I would put a few packers around the edge to prevent it moving and leave doing it until very close to your BCO visit. I'll add that you're in a difficult position re the insulation because of the ceiling height but I would put something insulating between the concrete and wood flooring if you are removing the Celotex.

 

Ok understood Peter, thanks: if my only realistic option of 'something minimum' at the least insulating between my wood floor & slab instead of my 50mm C'tex already got, is likely 25mm, then with the added cost of buying this in (& removing floor & reusing the C'tex) just for 1" height gained.. it can't be worth it.

 

With the stress of trying to figure out what PeterW was on about re. a "heated room" I just can't cope after the massive stress & hassle of the build/ the builder I'm not yet finalised with (he's not giving me the bill promised dec19th, I know to cause added stress/ dragging out/ likely providing an excuse [time] for him to conveniently deny we agreed he'd do X & Y jobs as compromise for me).. I have to forget this idea & just go with what I have > glue it together/ be done with it.

[zoothorn]

I add some musical relief, by way of a sort of "zen/ calming" interlude:

 

 

 

 

 

[Gone West]

10 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Ok understood Peter, thanks: if my only realistic option of 'something minimum' at the least insulating between my wood floor & slab instead of my 50mm C'tex already got, is likely 25mm, then with the added cost of buying this in (& removing floor & reusing the C'tex) just for 1" height gained.. it can't be worth it.

The minimum could be 3mm XPS as linked to by @jfb . You would have to initially fit the 50mm Celotex as required by the BCO and then remove it after sign off and replace it with the XPS which could be 3mm, 6mm or 10mm. The XPS won't be insulating to the same degree as the Celotex but would create a little more comfort underfoot than with no insulation at all and the thicker the XPS is the more comfortable the floor would feel. Thin XPS is a lot cheaper than thicker Celotex.

[jfb]

Zoot yes I did mean using 10 or 20mm insulation instead of the 50mm. I didn't mean going back to the bco to try and get the OK for that. Just when you rip up the floor after he has visited you could easily put the thinner insulation down before the wood. The only cost would be what it costs to buy as it will take minutes to install as the floor is coming up anyway. It will still make a worthwhile difference. Remember that with insulation there are diminishing returns for greater thicknesses of it meaning the first milimetres provide the most benefit.

 

Not sure if this is clear but make sure when the flooring goes down for the final time that you glue all the joints.

[zoothorn]

Ok thanks Peter & jfb.. understood/ seen XPS & it looks just the job. But whether either of my 2x only merchants can get it.. but provisionally going with this stuff then.

 

Can I ask again tho: as the idea's -totally- dependent on my BCO being happy with the innitial 50mm C'tex/ 22mm board floor I lay.

 

So do you think these Caber+ boards could be laid & joined without glueing together, & not either look or feel odd underfoot/ or loose/ or anything suggesting to him they're not properly done > redo please? if I have to redo & glue.. whole idea is ruined & I can never redo.