zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Hi chaps, groundwork having been done (+350mm too deep, & my concerns remedied by this extra being "put onto the lower room H" via a call I made- ok fine/ tho why this mistake still unknown). Today 1st day of Timber Frame build: chaps suddenly appear 12.30pm. I was told monday/ tuesday only yesterday by my builder.. so why they (4) all suddenly turn up 12.30.. I'm querying. And problems are continuing. The lower room was done in 3rs, roof trusses on. 1st I asked my builder re. what H are we aiming for the lower room? (altho already established on the call ^ at 2350mm: the mystery extra 350mm added on to plan's 2m). I repeatedly asked about the room H today.. "2.2m" (so 2350mm now n/a). I was shown 8x2 canadians "so we can make up/ shims". Aha ok. 2.2m I thought.. right I can just about accept.. but TOTAL MIN as now its very concerning as to the upper room's H increacing > balcony lowering > the step-into this room increacing.. & the roof lowering??? Once they'd gone I measure: 2.2m it is to trusses.. but without floor insulation & scree or ceiling pB. Now I feel like I'm being played like a fool, &/ or outright lied to. So 100mm insulation +40mm scree(?) +10pB = 2050mm. Its extremely low in here. I was told & I was insistant etc this would be so.. this room H would be 2350mm. All total bllx to cover for innitial mistake. The trouble is now my trust is shot. As to the build its way off my plan, not rectified by adding the 350mm on my lower room H, & most of all (as I assume will happen) IF the upper room's just made to the orig plan (regardless of the extra 'mystery' 350mm I was told "all fine" only as to a reason why it occured).. ie 2300mm.. the whole roof will be 350mm short, so A) the step into it is now @ 450mm (my plan: 1 step) & the most concerning thing, B) the door into it will be ~& I can only approximate here~ 1650mm max.. which will not pass BRegs, & be awful to have to duck to use anyway even if were to be done. All depends on the top room H. Discounting what answer I'd get now, I have to find out how the remaining sections might go (orientation).. basically try & find out what this figure is to be.. before they start.. & stop them if neccessary continuing.. or I'll be left totally fkd at the end. So yet another night without sleep. I cannot tell you how many times I ve discussed the critical nature of simply the two rooms' heights with my builder. 2 years of planning, design, chats with him, all down the toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 So, and correct me if i'm wrong, the finish floor level of the extension is lower than your existing house finish floor level ? By how much ? What is the ceiling height from the floor of your existing house ? What is the ceiling height anticipated by you in the new extension ? How are you going to access the new extension from your existing house ? A door with steps down ? Do you have enough height for a full height door ? To get from your existing house into the extention Answer the above, and i will see if i can help further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Hi BigJ- FFL of extention on the plan is 1 step, below existing FFL. What's been done, is 350mm extra -ontop- of this. Why? a mistake, clearly so. I anticipated 2m H, this is on my plan. I was told tho, once I asked why the +350mm? "oh all fine/ it'll be added to the lower room H". Altho not what I specified, if I were to gain 350mm.. then I could make this addition 'useful' (tho a pain & expense to refashion ground around it). But what's been built is 2.05m. This 'extra' hasn't happened. The extention is simply 2 storys, access -only- via a knock-thru from master bedroom, into top room. This on plan is a small step, now its grown to 450mm. Btm room door to outside only. I do not know- & this is my current HUGE concern- if I have enough room for a full H door between now. Because the position of the lower room ceiling/ dividing floor/ & critically the floor level ontop has all shifted down 350mm.. I cannot establish what my top room H will be. I'm outside panicking trying to measure xyz in the dark: I'm panicking I'll not have enough ceiling height in new room to connect between via a normal H door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Can someone tell me whaty thickness scree is typically? I guessed 40mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Can someone tell me where the FFL has to be relative to the dpm sticking out the wall next to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Can someone tell me whaty thickness scree is typically? I guessed 40mm I would guess 65-70mm for a sand cement screed. 27 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Can someone tell me where the FFL has to be relative to the dpm sticking out the wall next to it? Level with, above, below. Depends on the detail. The FFL can be lower than the DPM if it steps down. Edited October 31, 2019 by Onoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Onoff said: I would guess 65-70mm for a sand cement screed. Level with, above, below. Depends on the detail. The FFL can be lower than the DPM if it steps down. 65-70mm??!! omg I cant cope with this. I'm gonna have to pull the job/ lawyers etc. its an utter fkn disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, zoothorn said: 65-70mm??!! omg I cant cope with this. I'm gonna have to pull the job/ lawyers etc. its an utter fkn disaster. You said "typically". Thinner screed systems are doable but I'm guessing more expensive than ordinary sand and cement. Found at random: https://gbr.sika.com/content/united_kingdom/flooring/en/products-and-systems/floor-screeds/industrial-screeds/rapid-set-screed.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Onoff said: You said "typically". Thinner screed systems are doable but I'm guessing more expensive than ordinary sand and cement. Found at random: https://gbr.sika.com/content/united_kingdom/flooring/en/products-and-systems/floor-screeds/industrial-screeds/rapid-set-screed.html The thing is Ive got the dpm layer (black thick stuff) 11cm above the surface. Ive got 2.2m between this & the goddam ceiling truss things (which have to be pB onto). Im so sick of this H issue!! promised 2.35m, then told 2.2 today, then in acutality its maybe 1.95m!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Is there no B.Regs minimum point, that the FFL has to be, relative to this black thick dpm stuff sticking out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, zoothorn said: The thing is Ive got the dpm layer (black thick stuff) 11cm above the surface. Ive got 2.2m between this & the goddam ceiling truss things (which have to be pB onto). Im so sick of this H issue!! promised 2.35m, then told 2.2 today, then in acutality its maybe 1.95m!! I can understand your frustrations but it's a bit tricky sometimes to understand without photos. Most of us would be holding tapes up etc and snapping away. For instance when talking about how my two gate posts were at different heights a couple of pics conveyed the issue to anyone looking: Edited October 31, 2019 by Onoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Can I hear wedding bells? Or will it be a ménage à trois with @zoothorn, @Onoff and @pocster? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Is there no B.Regs minimum point, that the FFL has to be, relative to this black thick dpm stuff sticking out? No. There's accepted norms like externally the black stuff is 150mm above a path / patio. Even that can be less if things like French drains are used. FFL can be higher or lower than the DPM. 99.9% of the time this is shown on a section drawing with all the materials to be used and agreed on by all parties before work starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 I know but I don't have the light to take a pic of my tape measure now. Or a phone/ cam. I can't see how my pointing at 11cm would help. At the moment the groundwork's done. It does not have insulation or scree. I have is a concrete surface onto which insulation will go, & a dpm (dpc?) layer in the outer perimeter. I see the dpm/ dpc is 11cm cm above the surface. Between the surface & the ceiling, I measure 2.2m. I'm trying to establish what at the world's most minimum I can get away with to satisfy B.Regs, in terms of the isulation + final layer.. to scrimp every mm I can because of this appalling situation I'm in. Then I can find out what my lower room H actually is.. instead of being lied to by a fkn cowboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Why can the whole structure not just be raised by 350mm or whatever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Onoff said: No. There's accepted norms like externally the black stuff is 150mm above a path / patio. Even that can be less if things like French drains are used. FFL can be higher or lower than the DPM. 99.9% of the time this is shown on a section drawing with all the materials to be used and agreed on by all parties before work starts. I know but you know I don't have section drawings etc etc, you know this is being built via a Build Notice which doesn't neccessarily need them if a builder is competant & experienced. Its like saying 'well normally a room is 2.7m high'.. its only tutting at me. I'm totally regretting the decision Ive made, sure, but please don't rub my nose in it. This should -never EVER in a month of sundays have been wrongly/ too deep dug by 350mm. It has been, due only to haste by no2 & not looking at the plan. Not by anything I've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Onoff said: Why can the whole structure not just be raised by 350mm or whatever? Because the lower room is built with the ceiling fixed on, & all the top room sections are sitting in a pile (all made) ready in the rain.. ready to be put together. I can't elongate them overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpd Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, Onoff said: Why can the whole structure not just be raised by 350mm or whatever? 10 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Because the lower room is built with the ceiling fixed on, & all the top room sections are sitting in a pile but surely they just need to raise the lower section by building a 350mm timber frame and then the pre built frames just sit on top ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, zoothorn said: Because the lower room is built with the ceiling fixed on, & all the top room sections are sitting in a pile (all made) ready in the rain.. ready to be put together. I can't elongate them overnight. It will be a damn sight harder to raise the completed 2 storey thing. If you were to raise the lower section now, when the top floor and roof trusses go on would it all fit under the existing roof? Perhaps you should stop any further work until this lower room height issue is resolved. 2m or less finished floor to ceiling height is impractical to my mind. From reading you have these people turning up as and when they want and "things" happen, often not to your understanding or satisfaction. Unless you have some formal means of communication like email with the main man to pose questions, raise issues and record the process this farce will continue. Continually saying he doesn't work like that is just going to make people here, including me switch off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Onoff said: Why can the whole structure not just be raised by 350mm or whatever? The top room sections cannot be minimised/ cut. This would need to be done, in theory, then room 1 ceiling truss/ beam things removed, then 350mm added onto the walls here, then the truss/ beams put back (where I was promised they would be only 2 days ago). This theoretical fix would solve 2 problems: the cramped lower room H. And the huge 450mm step into the top room from the knock-thru door to what it should be (& what's on the goddam plan). But it wouldn't mean my top room walls aren't too low/ so my final upper ceiling & roof too low > so my knock-thru door is impossible.. as seems to be the case afaict at the moment. I just don't know. I briefly saw a plan today, from which they were working: 2m lower room, 200mm dividing floor, 2.3m top room. This is what I stipulated on my plan. BUT it hasn't taken into accounthe the huge +350mm extra that's been dug down! I was lied to when I asked my builder "I just saw the plans there, & it says 2m lower room.. that's not what's happening is it?" .. "Oh no, it'll be 2.2m.. we have shim beams [8x2 cannadians on their side] which we've been given to make up the H" he said. I saw 2x put in below the ceiling truss/ beam things.. but even with these.. I'm at 2.2m WITHOUT my insulation & final floor layer. Total lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Cpd said: but surely they just need to raise the lower section by building a 350mm timber frame and then the pre built frames just sit on top ? They do, if the WHOLE thing top to btm is indeed 350mm short. But I saw them build this in such speed today I honestly believe, with the fibs I'm told to keep me at bay when I appear & ask, they're just going ahead with the innitial room Heights.. with clear knowledge the +350mm extra D mistake made.. but completely unwilling to even consider adding this 350mm. So yes the WHOLE thing will be 350mm short. Now if this is true -& I'm growing to believe its exactly so- I definitely WILL have a too-low knock-thru door which will not only not pass building regs, but need a massive £15k redo to rectify it, lawyers & untold stress. The only ray of hope, & thin, is when I asked (yet again) about the overall H & where the roof will sit relative to the original roof, IE tuck right up max it can, he said "yes.. we can even try get it 150mm from it/ the max B.Regs allows". Now why he would say such a huge lie, if it is another lie, I just cannot believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, zoothorn said: Can someone tell me whaty thickness scree is typically? I guessed 40mm sod screed ... isn’t this a work room for you ..?? 90mm PIR with a floating floor of 22mm chipboard, that’s 102mm finished and a gnats nadger above your black DPM so you’ve still got 2.2m ceiling height all bar the fighting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Can these timber frame ceiling truss/ beam things be removed? They were nail-gun attatched. Probably 5 of them done, not full 8. Its the only thing I can think of.. but I have one huge fight, weeks of this lot left in rain to deter me, possibly them walking off job & sueing me/ threats etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, PeterW said: sod screed ... isn’t this a work room for you ..?? 90mm PIR with a floating floor of 22mm chipboard, that’s 102mm finished and a gnats nadger above your black DPM so you’ve still got 2.2m ceiling height all bar the fighting. No, I've got 2.06m room height then.. in this best case situation. I do not want a chipboard floor, or any wood floor, in a workshop with routers & saws etc anyway. It was always to be scree. At the moment I measure 2.2m. This is -not- taking into account the additional minimum of insulation, scree, or pB on the ceiling truss things underside yet. I;m definitely gonna have to ask for 50mm PIR which I'm very angry about after being promised xyz. 2.35m I was promised, from FFL to underside of ceiling truss things. I'm so angry & dissapointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) What do your drawings say and what does your build contract say? Have you paid up front for this work or are you paying in stages? Edited October 31, 2019 by Bitpipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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