Which kerbstones for driveway entrance flood prevention.

[epsilonGreedy]

I have dug a shallow trench 5.4m long across the entrance of my drive which leads to a gravel private road. My intention is to build up something resembling a speed bump to prevent water running onto my plot.

 

Background:

 

Last winter I suffered repeated flooding episodes in my open foundation footings during heavy rain e.g. 1" overnight or 2" in a week. This autumn matters have improved because the uphill boundary of my plot now features a 40m long soil bund about 600mm high, this will become a hedge base which is a requirement of my planning approval. My lawn is much dryer this year compared to last winters boggy state because surface water is deflected around the plot. However much the same volume of water now enters the site via the drive entrance which is a 5m gap in the hedge bund.

 

Planned Solution

 

Having watched the inward flow of water during heavy rain I reckon a shallow ramp at the drive entrance will dissuade water from entering the plot i.e. think speedbump. The problem is my final drive will have a stone chippings surface which leads to a private drive which is also finished in stone chippings, this means I need to form a solid ridge to prevent water wriggling through the hardcore and gavel of the private road and then into my plot.

 

My Question.

 

Would a double row of concrete path edging kerbs deteriorate as domestic traffic passes over or should I buy something more solid such as the Melton kerbs shown here https://www.brettpaving.co.uk/commercial/kerbs-channels/meltone-kerb/

 

I was going to use these https://www.travisperkins.co.uk/Marshalls-Concrete-Round-Top-Path-Edging-50mm-x-150mm-x-915mm-1615/p/924013

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

Path edgings may not be suitable for vehicle traffic, what about kerb edgings laid on their back, gives you a “ramp” up to and holds back the gravel. I did that on a previous drive and it worked very well.

[PeterW]

B will snap, you can get a standard ramp profile but I wound be putting in a decent drain first to stop the water rather than a barrier as water will find its way through the tiniest gap. 

[Russell griffiths]

I wouldn’t do anything neat until you are 99%finished

scratch a trench out with a mattock and fil with a strong concrete mix set 50-75mm high round of the top with a chunk of timber, rough up with a broom to make non slip, Roberts your mothers brother. 

 

Anything pretty you put there will get trashed by the first delivery wagon. 

 

On a a different note, are you going to get you hedge in soon, stick some rabbit gaurds around them and by the time you move in you will have a nice bushy hedge. 

 

Pennies to do in the grand scheme of things but worth thousands in getting it established early. 

[epsilonGreedy]

40 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Path edgings may not be suitable for vehicle traffic, what about kerb edgings laid on their back, gives you a “ramp” up to and holds back the gravel. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, PeterW said:

B will snap, you can get a standard ramp profile...

 

 

Thanks both, I was about to head off to the BM at 4pm to buy 14 path edging sections for £90 then said to Swmbo "if this idea fails it will be a right pain to remove, I will postpone for a day and see what they think on BuildHub".

 

Ok I will shop for something more substantial than path edging kerbs particularly as the BM lorry can save me much labouring effort if it enters the site and swings deliveries further in.

 

In addition to the flood barrier I need something that looks rustic and as a bonus will keep the chippings separated because my drive will have light "Cotswold Chippings" (actually the non porous type of the same name from Derby) but the site road has dark grey chippings to resemble tarmac. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by epsilonGreedy

[epsilonGreedy]

16 minutes ago, PeterW said:

... but I wound be putting in a decent drain first to stop the water rather than a barrier as water will find its way through the tiniest gap. 

 

 

I think you are right about this but the site has a long contentious planning history including comments from the drainage board and I can only win so many planning revision battles each year. After living for a year on a damp plot I have developed an appreciation for drainage matters, the final solution will require a balance of measures to stop water entering the site and others to help water exit the site, there is a decent overall gradient.

 

In the short-term I have to focus on keeping the water out because the static caravan is parked over the site's low point where water exit drainage is required.

 

It all sounds worse than the reality, I am just getting fed up with using my Screwfix sump pump each day. Screwfix kindly replaced the first one which wore out.

[epsilonGreedy]

15 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

I wouldn’t do anything neat until you are 99%finished

scratch a trench out with a mattock and fil with a strong concrete mix set 50-75mm high round of the top with a chunk of timber, rough up with a broom to make non slip, Roberts your mothers brother. 

 

 

Much sense in that plan. I also have a ton of ballast leftover which prevents us parking two cars side-by-side. Consuming the ballast heap would mean an end to all that linear car switching.

 

18 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

On a a different note, are you going to get you hedge in soon, stick some rabbit gaurds around them and by the time you move in you will have a nice bushy hedge. 

 

Pennies to do in the grand scheme of things but worth thousands in getting it established early. 

 

 

I am thinking about that as we are approaching the time of year for planting bear root hedge saplings. I have a highly visible position in the middle of a conservation village and the natives are getting restless over the slow pace of the build. Forming a hedge would be good village politics. Swmbo has been out planting bulbs in the hedge bund for next Spring and I maintain a striped mowed lawn on the 1/3 of the plot that has survived build activities.

 

We might end up like the young guy on Grand Designs this year who had a finished landscaped garden while inside he stalled half way between 1st and 2nd fix.

[Redoctober]

11 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Forming a hedge would be good village politics. Swmbo has been out planting bulbs in the hedge bund for next Spring and I maintain a striped mowed lawn on the 1/3 of the plot that has survived build activities.

 

I agree with @Russell griffiths about getting the hedging in now - we ordered our bare root "whips" for this time last year - Can be cheap as chips depending on size etc - We used Scotplants direct - and I have some additional ones on order for this November, just to plug the gaps. The photo below shows how well they come on - at time of photo, they had only been planted in for 8 months! Also, the rabbit guards are an absolute necessary - we lost a few whips to the hares before mine arrived!!

Can't help with the drainage issue - sorry.

[ProDave]

We have a similar situation.  The camber on the road means surface water from the road runs down our side.  When it gets to our plot, the first thing it encounters is an acco drain section piped straight down to the burn.  This works well but is prone to blocking with grit that runs off the road, and in summer weed growth, so it needs regular cleaning out.

 

A bit like @epsilonGreedy I need a second line of defence.  And my plan is when we get the top layer of tarmac laid, to form a slight "speed bump" into that where it joins the road, so any water running down the road that gets past my drain, will not run down our drive but will carry on down the road (to become next door's problem instead)

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I am thinking about that as we are approaching the time of year for planting bear root hedge saplings. I have a highly visible position in the middle of a conservation village and the natives are getting restless over the slow pace of the build. Forming a hedge would be good village politics.

how long is the bund you need to cover ..? 5-7 plants per metre is a good estimate - we use this company for most of ours. 
 

https://www.hedgesdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Blackthorn-based-40-60-cm-bare-rootsx100.html#SID=330

 

Enough in that pack for 15-20m. If you need tree guards I’ve got about 3,000 spare somewhere ... someone didn’t read that there were 10 spirals of 10 per pack....... not 10 per pack ... 

[Russell griffiths]

For a nice raised strip between the gravel when the time comes. 

3-5 rows of granite setts, you can raise each row 5mm higher than the previous to create a raised hump without the teeth clattering of a raised curb. 

Point them up nice and they will look the nuts 

[Gone West]

When we lived in the bungalow, before the new build started, we had rainwater flooding off the road and into our driveway. I complained to the Highways Dept. and they said all they could do was lay a raised bed of tarmac along the width of the driveway which I accepted. It worked and it also established that they accepted there was a flooding problem. As a result I was allowed to install road kerbs along the whole frontage of the new build.

[Temp]

14 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

For a nice raised strip between the gravel when the time comes. 

3-5 rows of granite setts, you can raise each row 5mm higher than the previous to create a raised hump without the teeth clattering of a raised curb. 

Point them up nice and they will look the nuts 

 

+1 or perhaps a few rows of granite kerbs..

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253302807745

 

I'd also wait until the build is nearly finished.

[epsilonGreedy]

On 29/10/2019 at 19:37, ProDave said:

We have a similar situation.  The camber on the road means surface water from the road runs down our side.  When it gets to our plot, the first thing it encounters is an acco drain section piped straight down to the burn.  This works well but is prone to blocking with grit that runs off the road, and in summer weed growth, so it needs regular cleaning out.

 

A bit like @epsilonGreedy I need a second line of defence.  And my plan is when we get the top layer of tarmac laid, to form a slight "speed bump" into that where it joins the road, so any water running down the road that gets past my drain, will not run down our drive but will carry on down the road (to become next door's problem instead)

 

 

Because of my central location many experts pass by for a chat when I am onsite. Most suggest a drain first solution like yours.

 

I will implement a drain eventually but for now the speed bump flood defense is less contentious.

 

At this point the project is stalled because I have lost the marker peg for the end of the roof drainage attenuation tank outlet pipe. I need to call in the BBC TimeTeam "geophys" crew to x-ray my drive for the lost pipe.

[epsilonGreedy]

On 29/10/2019 at 18:59, Redoctober said:

I agree with @Russell griffiths about getting the hedging in now - we ordered our bare root "whips" for this time last year - Can be cheap as chips depending on size etc - We used Scotplants direct - and I have some additional ones on order for this November, just to plug the gaps. The photo below shows how well they come on - at time of photo, they had only been planted in for 8 months!

 

 

Looks good and planting the hedge would be a useful winter time-filler activity. Is that a beech hedge? I will be planting a copper beech hedge which retains its old season brown leaves through the winter before the new growth comes through.

 

The BM delivery lorry will be able to swing deliveries over the hedge during the first growth season.

[epsilonGreedy]

On 29/10/2019 at 19:44, PeterW said:

how long is the bund you need to cover ..? 5-7 plants per metre is a good estimate - we use this company for most of ours. 
 

https://www.hedgesdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Blackthorn-based-40-60-cm-bare-rootsx100.html#SID=330

 

Enough in that pack for 15-20m. If you need tree guards I’ve got about 3,000 spare somewhere ... someone didn’t read that there were 10 spirals of 10 per pack....... not 10 per pack ... 

 

 

I will need to plant 45 meters of hedge eventually though I have to leave a 5 meter access gap until the build is finished to allow mid size plant access to all sides of the house. A local in the village is happy to turn up for £35 per hour with his telehandler which is money well spent I hope when moving packs or bricks and blocks to ideal positions as the build progresses.

 

Then there is still the possibility of needing to dig a hole for the LPG tank if I don't go 100% electric.

 

Thanks for the offer of tree guards, apparently Muntjac dear are the main problem here.

[Jeremy Harris]

Our experience of planting a few hundred 600mm bare root mixed native species hedging was that they didn't do much the first year, but took off after that, although we did have a few losses.   Cheap as chips, though, and very well worth getting in now, if you can.  I think part of our minor problem was putting them in a bit late (late January) when I think that, ideally, they should have gone in by the end of November.

[epsilonGreedy]

3 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Our experience of planting a few hundred 600mm bare root mixed native species hedging was that they didn't do much the first year, but took off after that, although we did have a few losses.   Cheap as chips, though, and very well worth getting in now, if you can.  I think part of our minor problem was putting them in a bit late (late January) when I think that, ideally, they should have gone in by the end of November.

 

 

The first completed property at my 3 plot self build location has shown similar slow 1st year growth with their hedge. I think the raised bunds required in the planning approval are prone to lack of water in the summer hence the saplings will struggle for a few years, I am not expecting anything like @Redoctober's surge of first year growth.

 

I get the impression that bare root hedging will only be supplied when the nurseries are sure the plants are dormant. I was told that even if I placed an order in September they would only ship in November or December.

[Cpd]

I have put in a few thousand bare root plants and they are always slow to get going, this year I have put in 600 cell grown trees so will see if they respond quicker. This year I planted

300eucalyptus (x3 varieties  )  

100 lodgepole

100 Italian alder 

100 snowy mespilus  

 

[Jeremy Harris]

9 minutes ago, Cpd said:

I have put in a few thousand bare root plants and they are always slow to get going, this year I have put in 600 cell grown trees so will see if they respond quicker. This year I planted

300eucalyptus (x3 varieties  )  

100 lodgepole

100 Italian alder 

100 snowy mespilus  

 

 

Be interesting to see if there is a difference.  We were given some unwanted seedlings, a bit smaller than the bare roots we had delivered, and they did a great deal better.  Might have something to do with them being local, perhaps, so already adapted to our soil.

[PeterW]

When doing bare root we tend to have 15/20 spares and they go into a corner to grow on. If there is a gap in the hedge a year later, one or two of these get transplanted into the gap - same batch so they tend to look and be the same size as the rest 

[Redoctober]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

When doing bare root we tend to have 15/20 spares and they go into a corner to grow on. If there is a gap in the hedge a year later, one or two of these get transplanted into the gap - same batch so they tend to look and be the same size as the rest 

 

This is exactly what happened with our first order - there were a good 50 or so spare so they were planted in the neighbouring field collectively like a bushel. This acted like a nursery and come the spring, we replanted them in place of the ones that had been eaten by the Hares!

 

@epsilonGreedy the hedging is a mixture of what they call native hedging - Hawthorn, Horn beam, field maple and blackthorn. Although across the back for continuity we have gone for Hornbeam - very similar to Beech.

[Jeremy Harris]

I wish I'd thought to do the  same, and heel in a few dozen spares.  Where I've filled in some gaps the hedge is now a bit uneven.  I also found that with the mixed native species hedging, some grow a lot faster than others.  In our case it's the field maples and wild cherries that have established a lot faster than the hazel, hawthorn, wild rose and blackthorn.  The wild cherries, in particular, see to grow at a prodigious rate when established, and need far more pruning than the others.  I'd be tempted to leave them out of the mix if ever planting a similar hedge in future.

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I wish I'd thought to do the  same, and heel in a few dozen spares.  Where I've filled in some gaps the hedge is now a bit uneven.  I also found that with the mixed native species hedging, some grow a lot faster than others.  In our case it's the field maples and wild cherries that have established a lot faster than the hazel, hawthorn, wild rose and blackthorn.  The wild cherries, in particular, see to grow at a prodigious rate when established, and need far more pruning than the others.  I'd be tempted to leave them out of the mix if ever planting a similar hedge in future.

We only used hawthorn and blackthorn so it would be easy to keep them in check. We were lucky and nearly all of our bare rooted whips took well and we only needed to replace two from our heeled in replacement stock. It's amazing how quickly the heeled in spares rooted. It took a lot of digging to remove them after a year.

[epsilonGreedy]

On 30/10/2019 at 10:06, Temp said:

+1 or perhaps a few rows of granite kerbs..

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253302807745

 

 

Just reviving this thread to say your eBay link was excellent. 6m of 3" x 6" granite kerb stones are on the way across 8 counties on a pallet for a £50+VAT delivery charge.

 

On the way back from our week away in Cornwall we detoured through the stunning countryside north of Dartmoor to visit https://www.winkleightimber.co.uk/ which is a large business that produces furniture onsite and sells all sorts of stone related materials on a near wholesale scale. We spent more time in their showroom and expect to order some internal rustic doors, a larder cupboard and wall plate rack later in the build.