Can a timber frame build be done using screws?

[Hastings]

Are screws an acceptable alternative to using nails in a timber frame structure or are nails the only fixing flexible enough for the task?

 

I want to avoid the cost of a nail gun but also having just demolished the ptevious timber frame build I'd like to make the new frame easier to demolish without damage to the material when it's time is up.

 

The build is inside an existing stone building on  two levels and will not be supporting the roof.

[Russell griffiths]

Yes, why not, screws are far superior for pulling together

but as for saving the cost of a nail gun, by the time you have brought lots of screws it would be cheaper to buy a nail gun. 

I have screwed all my structural walls as 90mm nails are just not up to the job of fixing structural timber of any size, ok for some light studwork internal stuff. 

 

[SteamyTea]

With the correct type screws it is not a problem.

Ordinary wood screws probably cannot be used.

Nails are used because the offer a better strength for a given diameter, are faster to inserts, and are cheaper.

 

And then there are bolts, which is probably what you really mean.

[Onoff]

31 minutes ago, Hastings said:

I'd like to make the new frame easier to demolish without damage to the material when it's time is up.

 

Will YOU be up to the task of demolishing when it's time is up? ?

 

What's the predicted lifespan of these walls?

[Jeremy Harris]

The choice of screw type is pretty critical.  Many screws have a much smaller effective diameter than the same size nail, so are going to be significantly weaker (which is why nails must be used to secure joist hangars, for example).  Also, lots of modern screw types are made of fairly brittle material, so tend to break rather than bend.

 

Screws are good at pulling two bits of material together, but generally less good at taking shear loads, and often fasteners used to hold together a timber frame are taking shear loads.  Not an insurmountable issue, just means using bigger screws of the right type.

 

There's no doubt that using screws would be slow and expensive when compared to nails, too.  Finally, I think it's worth  considering whether screws that have been holding a structure together for a couple of decades are actually going to ever come out easily.  I suspect they may not, so may cause more of a problem when dismantling the structure than if it had been nailed together.  Bolts might be the best solution, but would be costly and awkward to use.

[Onoff]

You won't go far wrong using this sort of timber screw. Slow and expensive though when compared to nails.

 

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/timberfix-flange-structural-timber-screw-brown-6-3-x-100mm-50-pack/23059?

 

I did all the new ceiling in my bathroom with them and its solid as a rock. I didn't want to use a hammer and nails as there was too much "loose" adjacent stuff like dodgy plaster etc. Didn't have a nail gun that fired nails that long either. I got these at mate rates from a company I've used for 35 years so all good. A nail gun would be better I think for skewing nails in at an angle.

[joe90]

I bought a nail gun second hand and it saves soooo much time, I have however pulled timbers together with screws just to hold it in place (need more hands!) then nailed them with the nail gun, you could probably sell the nail gun for what you paid for it afterwards (but if like me you see it as a necessary tool to keep ?).paslode nails and gas are expensive but loads of copy ones work just fine and much cheaper.

[Cpd]

I have pretty much used / using 95% screws on my buildings, just used ss ring shank nails for the cladding and that was it.  I constantly restock from 20mm all the way to 150mm as my project is ongoing and multi dimensional........  they are easy to access on the wall. 

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, Hastings said:

[...]

I want to avoid the cost of a nail gun but also having just demolished the previous timber frame build I'd like to make the new frame easier to demolish without damage to the material when it's time is up.

[...]

 

Notwithstanding the replies above: screws are slow(er) to insert, stronger at pulling together,  need to be bigger in some cases, more expensive than nails, I think there is a strong case to be made for using screws for appropriate parts of the build. 

 

It's not often that one hears -

4 hours ago, Hastings said:

[...]

I'd like to make the new frame easier to demolish without damage to the material when it's time is up.

[...]

 

20 years away? 

I was talking to a good mate who asked me whether I had thought about taking the  screws I have used  ...  out.

An old-fashioned look later, he explained to me that, before use,  he had dipped the screws used on his self-build in wax of some sort. And that, 20 years later,  he was now grateful he had done so. 

 

So, John what did ya dip them in then old fella?

Dunno, forgotten.

So I punched him - forfeit eventually agreed - one whole Aldi fruit cake.

 

Or you could just assume that someone else is going to have to take the screws out. 

 

PS, it took @Cpd  half a day to tidy his workshop up to that level of extreme tidiness. ?

[Redoctober]

17 minutes ago, Cpd said:

I have pretty much used / using 95% screws on my buildings, just used ss ring shank nails for the cladding and that was it.  I constantly restock from 20mm all the way to 150mm as my project is ongoing and multi dimensional........  they are easy to access on the wall. 

 

WOW - I have workshop envy. What a place! 

[SteamyTea]

Cpd or OCD?

[Hastings]

6 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

I have screwed all my structural walls as 90mm nails are just not up to the job of fixing structural timber of any size, ok for some light studwork internal stuff. 

 

90mm Round Wire and 75mm Ring Shanked x3.1mm Paslode nails are specified in the engineer's drawings. I think it is pretty standard for 2"x4" structural framing sheathed with 11mm OSB.

 

Did your engineer approve the screws instead?

Edited October 6, 2019 by Hastings

[Russell griffiths]

Nail gun nails are very standard practice, i Just like to do things better than standard so used screws on all mine, with the exception of any metal brackets that are in a shear load application so the correct nails should be used. 

I have just put over 3000 nail gun nails in my roof, so I’m not anti nail I just prefer the tight pull together you get with a well placed screw. 

[Redoctober]

24 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

I just prefer the tight pull together you get with a well placed screw. 

 

Sorry, I can't bring myself to write what is actually on my mind - it's a family forum after all ?? Brightened up a dull Sunday afternoon for me anyway.

[SteamyTea]

39 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

it's a family forum after all

Let's put a stop to that then, say what you really think.

[MikeSharp01]

We are using both and glue. I glue and screw the timber to the sheathing and the sole plate to locate it and the go round with the nail gun. The gun is a god send and wont cost you as much as you think because you can sell it once you are finished and it will be cheaper tham screws as they are 3 or 4 times as expensive than nails application for application.

[Hastings]

Thanks for the replies. Very useful to hear viewpoints from outside the box.

I hadn't thought about the added cost of 1,000s of screws vs nails.

I'll go with nails and can stop worrying about the structural implications of not using them.

[Russell griffiths]

I built a deck at my old place and the difference in cost from nails to screws was a £1000 more for screws. 

 

As a bloke that owns 4 nail guns I would say look at the gun you buy and if it needs gas or not as the cost can be significant buying all the gas, I have just gone backwards in technology and bought an air nailer for my roof, 3000 nails and it didn’t miss a beat, my gas nailer would have been a bloody pain it suffers with so many miss fires. 

[Hastings]

My roofers used a gas canister Paslode and I didn't notice they had any issues with it but then I was paying for all materials including gas.

 

There are about 5000 of 63mm nails needed just to fix 11mm OSB sheathing to all the walls and to the upstairs ceiling. That'll be getting on for £100 in gas plus I'll be working in cool weather (7-11C range). Wouldn't I be better using a battery only gun like the Dewalt?

 

I will build the walls in sections then fix in place, therefore will be switching between 2 or 3 different nails (90mm, 75mm, 63mm) - how much an issue is that in practice? I've never used one.

[PeterW]

Battery guns also suffer from cold - batteries last less time. 

 

I have a Paslode so I’m biased, but I now only use Paslode gas and nails (Screwfix sometimes being cheapest) and I wouldn’t use anything else. 

 

If I was kitting out again I would go with an air nailer as they are much lighter (even dragging a hose) and you can get them for £60-70

for a decent one. A good compressor is £250, and you can also get other finish nailers, staplers etc so it’s a decent useful purchase. 

 

I know  a lot of the US based framers and roofers swear by air tools and you can see why once you’ve tried them. 

[Jeremy Harris]

I have a very old first fix air nailer.  Damned near indestructible, never jams, just needs a bit of oil now and again.  It does need a compressor, but doesn't seem to be that hungry for air, so a modest compressor runs it OK.

 

They use air nailers almost exclusively in the US, where timber frame accounts for almost all housing.  No idea why we seem to fight shy of them, and seem to prefer to use gas nailers.  A first fix air nailer is probably around the same price as a gas one, including the cost of a cheap compressor to run it.

[Hastings]

Just for the record regarding screws for framing, since nobody has mentioned them yet, I was looking at these kind made specifically for timber framing (Simpson do something similar) :

[Hastings]

20 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

A first fix air nailer is probably around the same price as a gas one, including the cost of a cheap compressor to run it.

 

Good point. This project is off grid and whilst we will have 240V from sun and wind to batteries at some point, for the moment a small petrol genny is our power - makes running an electric compressor not a sensible option I think. It's an island site too so transporting compressor will add cost again.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Hastings

[Russell griffiths]

I have seen this done on a few builds on here, just check you are allowed to use clipped head nails for your sheathing 

I have always been under the impression that if it’s for racking strength than a coil nailer is needed as clipped head nails are not the right spec for racking boards, it’s probably an American thing so just check. 

 

As for the dewalt nailer i would give it a wide berth, it has one of the worst write ups I have seen in a while, and all my tools are dewalt. 

Hikoki or the new name for hitachi is meant to be the go to first fix gun. 

[Onoff]

Wish I could fix my big vintage nailer! Duo-Fast CN-350.

 

New seal kit from the States. Fitted that.  Fires one nail in and fails to return from memory.  I gave up and gave to my chippy mate who drew a blank too. Fires 90mm nails too.