Electrics Q

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps.

 

If someone's doing a 'self-build' say block outbuilding or extention, & Building Regs are to be followed/ adhered to etc.. is it feasable to fit electrics 'self-build' too (if competent obviously) ? or do they always have to be outsourced to a pro in order to satisfy the BCO/ B'Regs?

 

Thanks zoot.

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Hi chaps.

 

If someone's doing a 'self-build' say block outbuilding or extension, & Building Regs are to be followed/ adhered to etc.. is it feasible to fit electrics 'self-build' too (if competent obviously) ? or do they always have to be outsourced to a pro in order to satisfy the BCO/ B'Regs?

 

Thanks zoot.

No, of course you can but the issue is working out how to go about getting it tested and signed off - solve that aspect and you are sorted.

 

There are ways and options - one is a friendly electrician, usually one who is too damn busy, who would be wiling to let you first fix - let him inspect then have him back for second fix or, and this is where it gets tough, ask if you can second fix and have him check your work then at the end he will test it all, sign it off. Now this is possible, and people will say, you will never get someone to do this, but that is not true, it happens.

 

I know a friend who first fixed his entire extension himself, I gave him guidance re. the regs, when it came to second fix he got a recommendation of an electrician from his plasterer, he came out and the friend said, "the electrician who wired this won't pick up his phone and I cannot get hold of him". Guy said no bother, checked some bits and finished it off - only took him a day to complete and cost about £260.00

 

The issue then comes as to how competent you are and did you not only run cables appropriately, but did you ensure you didn't snag them and kink them and rip them through holes and cause damage where the second fix chap cannot see!

 

An extension or outbuilding is always easier - especially if the DB is of newer style and has spare ways - that way it is easy to add circuits and have them meet current regs. I have seen friends have new kitchens installed and end up needing new DB's as the old ones just would not cope with the electrical demand, so before you know it you are onto a partial rewire and a new DB! I makes sense and is the right way to do it, as much as sometimes we don't like the thought of that!

 

The issue is that in theory you can do it all then have it inspected, but you wouldn't have the necessary test equipment.

 

My gas man let me run in all the copper pipes under my house, he came in, spent an hour and soldered them all together - one guy was not interested and said he would need to supply and fit pipe, I told him I was not interested in him then and he told me no one would do it. Next 2 guys were more than happy to do this and the one that got the job only did so through ability to get here sooner. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Carrerahill

[zoothorn]

@Carrerahill ok thanks for that/ understand principle, which concurrs with what I thought -might- be a logical scenario (IE get in a friendly pro to oversee/ check/ last dibs). I have exactly the pro fits this bill to a T, who actually sees & impressed with my amp-making actually encouraged me to crack on myself & do my kitchen 'leccy work (no new wiring per se, but, a good exercise).

 

If I can fit a shower, surely I can do a simple electrics plan for my extention. My pro understands my budget constraint/ means, & I feel he's on my side too.

 

One thing differs here to most builds: its being built via a 'Build Notice' which afaict involves more visits by the BCO than usual method. Might this hamper my involvement? should I mention to the BCO of my plan even? or defo not.

 

thanks- zoot.

[Carrerahill]

7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I have exactly the pro fits this bill to a T, who actually sees & impressed with my amp-making actually encouraged me to crack on myself & do my kitchen 'leccy work (no new wiring per se, but, a good exercise).

 

 

I think you are sorted then! People will be jealous of this!

 

It is always good to have friendly contractors of all sorts of trades on speed dial. Due to the nature of my work I come across contractors a fair bit and the ones that impress me with good work on site I usually end up extracting their number!

 

I have always done and always will do my own electrical work, on my extension as BC are involved I obviously need a piece of paper with a signature on it. Years ago in an office I worked in, I PMed a refit for our firm, I was very impressed with the electrician who came in to do all the electrical work, decent guy, we had similar interests and I took his details at the time in case I needed anyone, this was about 10 years ago. Over the years he has become more of a friend and I have recommended him to friends and customers over the years, so although I have never used him myself he knows he has essentially had a lot of work because of me, including a big NHS hospital refit. 

 

He came round for a cup of tea a couple of months ago and we agreed the electrical works program. The extension is fully wired, home runs back to the DB, and I am nearly ready for PB - yet he has not lifted a finger. He works up in the Highlands most of the time so this suits him. I am more competent at doing this than most of the apprentices you see on sites these days and it is usually they who pull in cable, clip it, drill studs and mount back boxes - so really no one could say a thing about this at any level.

 

 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

One thing differs here to most builds: its being built via a 'Build Notice' which afaict involves more visits by the BCO than usual method. Might this hamper my involvement? should I mention to the BCO of my plan even? or defo not.

 

 

No, the final sign off for your electrics is what seals that deal - until then the electrics are a work in progress. All BC want is a signature on a test cert and usually the electricians NICEIC or SELECT etc. registration No. will be on it.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Carrerahill

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

No, the final sign off for your electrics is what seals that deal - until then the electrics are a work in progress. All BC want is a signature on a test cert and usually the electricians NICEIC or SELECT etc. registration No. will be on it.

 

Ok great info last 2 posts Carrerahill, appreciated. Should I 1st be asking my pro chap then if he -is- "NICEIC or SELECT" register-capable (if you see what Im getting at).. rather than just assuming he might be?

[Carrerahill]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Ok great info last 2 posts Carrerahill, appreciated. Should I 1st be asking my pro chap then if he -is- "NICEIC or SELECT" register-capable (if you see what Im getting at).. rather than just assuming he might be?

He really must be assuming he is an electrician, he needs to basically be on a registrar of one of the clubs. Simply ask him in conversation. I'd go, oh BC are involved I assume you're OK to give me a NICEIC approved type cert for the works for BC sign-off - if he says yes then he knows the score. That sounds less like a grilling than outright asking if he is a pukka spark!

Edited October 1, 2019 by Carrerahill

[ProDave]

Move to Scotland. We don't have this part P nonsense.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Move to Scotland. We don't have this part P nonsense.

 

Not a bad plan.. I'm sure Id be more welcome there than I am here, a bit anyway!

 

@Carrerahill that's a good plan, I was thinking along these lines/ but sure he's got the neccessary experience in place if not known by the BCO who'll be dealing with the build (very small world here etc). I'll call him tonight.

 

As to a pretty basic electrics design for my extention, is there a best place on the forum to ask general 'leccy Q's.. or this general build section?

[ProDave]

36 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

As to a pretty basic electrics design for my extention, is there a best place on the forum to ask general 'leccy Q's.. or this general build section?

Choose the best sub section from here

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/forum/42-electrics-lighting-home-security/

[MrSniff]

Might be worth checking if the BC department has a tame certifier, either in-house (becoming more unlikely) or a firm they use? Our BC sign-off after replacing the bathroom included the Part P checks and certificate for the electrical work I did, although that was fairly simple (lights and bonding etc).

[zoothorn]

16 hours ago, ProDave said:

Choose the best sub section from here

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/forum/42-electrics-lighting-home-security/

 

Ok thanks ProDave- crikey another section I hadn't known of.. this place is BIG.

 

@MrSniff I'm not quite sure on what you refer to.. but will ask my 'leccy chap these points.

 

Many thanks- if anyone had a mo to dip into my "Zoots Electric!" thread (up soon) on this ^ section.. that would be great. thx zoot.

[ProDave]

What @MrSniff is taliking about is Part P of the building regs.  This is over and above the IEE wiring regs.  Part P only applies (differently) in England and Wales and requires that certain wiring needs part P sign off.  In theory building control should be able to offer that service to inspect and test your wiring, but in practice a lot of BC departments don't.  You couls always ask yours and see what they say.

 

Otherwise it is a case of find an electrician who has signed up to one of the self certification schemes who will let you do some of the work and then test and certify it for you.

 

Again in theory it should be possible to find an electrician just to test it and certify it, that is allowed under the rules, but again very few are interested in doing that. they don't like the responsibility of signing off other people's work.

[Temp]

When Part P was introduced John Prescott wrote to council's telling them they should inspect and sign off electrics same as they do other aspects of the building regs. He said it was unacceptable for BCO to insist on a certificate from a third party electrician. He even told council's they should use the profits they make from building control application fees to pay for it. I remember posting the letter on the old ebuild forum.

 

What I don't know is if this position was changed since?

[Big Jimbo]

I did part p years ago at a training centre, and got a cert. From what i remember is was simple stuff like wire runs being vertical, or horizontal, dont drill a joist near the end etc, etc. Very much common sense stuff to be honest. I am also very old, and qualified as an electrician, although never used it for making money..... I always wire all my own stuff, full house refurbs, extensions etc.  Unless you know an electrician very well, i doubt you will get one to sign off your work with an install and test cert.

I have in the passed managed to fall out big time with my BCO on a job (about window vents, and free to air soil pipes) When i came to the final inspection and had him in front of me i said. Right fella, I'm part P. I have no idea where my cert is, and i'm a qualified electrician, but not the up to date edition. I have done the full install myself from the incoming, so how are we going to handle this. He said, just get a periodic test done, send it in, and i'll sign it off. I have always, just continued to do that. About 10 times now, and never had a problem, or had it questioned.

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

I did part p years ago at a training centre, and got a cert. From what i remember is was simple stuff like wire runs being vertical, or horizontal, dont drill a joist near the end etc, etc. Very much common sense stuff to be honest. I am also very old, and qualified as an electrician, although never used it for making money..... I always wire all my own stuff, full house refurbs, extensions etc.  Unless you know an electrician very well, i doubt you will get one to sign off your work with an install and test cert.

I have in the passed managed to fall out big time with my BCO on a job (about window vents, and free to air soil pipes) When i came to the final inspection and had him in front of me i said. Right fella, I'm part P. I have no idea where my cert is, and i'm a qualified electrician, but not the up to date edition. I have done the full install myself from the incoming, so how are we going to handle this. He said, just get a periodic test done, send it in, and i'll sign it off. I have always, just continued to do that. About 10 times now, and never had a problem, or had it questioned.

 

You might have a Part P cert, (as I have), but if you're not a member of a competency scheme (scam?) then in theory you should be paying full building control fees per job. You must have a very understanding BCO. And I might add, a reasonable one. I don't know if it's still in the approved document but it did at one time I'm sure refer to individual offices having discretion over what they would accept. Most used it all as a cash cow.

 

My Part P course I'm guessing was a bit different to many so I've come up believe. 35 weeks, 6 hours per week over 2 evenings. 3 hours theory, 3 hours practical. I remember it cost £1066.00. It was going over stuff I was doing daily anyway but back then everyone was suckered into jumping on the Part P train. (I had grand plans of becoming a property tycoon but that's another story). In fairness the course was very good even covering practical work with SWA & MICC. There were postmen on the course and even a roofer hoping to change career. A couple of plumbers wanting to stop having to sub that side out. They didn't have a clue, one I think took an online test 6 times and he was a sparks mate! Other courses I've heard were 5 days.

 

In terms of pure hours I am then a "5ww" ?

 

I then though went on and did 3 years for the Level 3 C&G 2330 plus the regs. What was the point I wonder, it's now deemed not an NVQ so I've given up. (Though I have just this year done my 18th).

 

Part P was always doomed to failure imo unless they were prepared to restrict access to who could purchase gear. 

 

The current document is a shadow of it's first incarnation.

[Big Jimbo]

I've done it with several different BCO's and 4 Local authorities On Off. Think of it this way. Sparks comes along, does all your first fix. You cover it up with all your plaster etc. He comes back and does your second fix. Everything connected and working. He says he will come back on Saturday morning with his final invoice, do your test, and issue your cert.

He never makes it because he crashed his van, and he is now re-wireing harps in the clouds. Any other electrician is not going to want to cert his work. He can't even see the install. At best he will do a periodic test for you. What are you going to do, rip out all your finish work ? Never going to happen. I have yet to find a BCO that won't accept a periodic test.

[zoothorn]

10 hours ago, ProDave said:

Again in theory it should be possible to find an electrician just to test it and certify it, that is allowed under the rules, but again very few are interested in doing that. they don't like the responsibility of signing off other people's work.

 

I understand most wouldn't care to work this way, sure, but I have a very understanding Electrician/ friend in the village, who'll I'm very sure be fine with *me doing/ him test & certifying. So this is the furrow I'm ploughing (sorry I'll leave the PlanP stuff for yous to discuss as its too complicated for me). But is this* idea actually 'within the rules' sorry I'm not quite clear.. or.. is is not neccessarily but fine if my chap is happy-?

 

thanks for help- zoot.

Edited October 2, 2019 by zoothorn

[Jeremy Harris]

First question I had from building control after submitting our full plans application was who was going to do the electrical installation.  I rang them and said that I was, that I was suitably qualified, but wasn't a member of one of the Part P cartels as I was retired (you cannot be a member if you're not earning a living as an electrician, apparently).  Building control were apologetic, but explained that they had no one qualified to inspect and test an installation, and they knew of no electricians in the area that would inspect and test a third party installation, so could I please use a Part P accredited electrician.

 

Pissed me off more than a little, as it cost us money that I hadn't budgeted for, but on the positive side it gave a local lad who was just starting his own business some work.

 

Daft thing is that I can do any non-Part P work, or undertake an EICR, without any issues at all.

[ProDave]

I am in an even more ridiculous situation. Because there is no part P in Scotland I am obviously not signed up with any scheme.  All BC want here is a complete EIC. I have done new builds in Highland, Invernessshire and Moray and all have just accepted my EIC's.

 

But the daft bit is I can't come down to England and fit a new circuit for anyone.  The last job I did in England was a new CU for my sister, the day before Part P came into farce. 

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

came into farce. 

 

I presume that’s not a typo!!!!!

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

 

I presume that’s not a typo!!!!!

 

Force/farce

Scheme/scam 

[Adam E]

I don’t know if the Inspection/test is different for new builds ? but plenty of sparks do inspections and testing for rented properties guesthouses etc which need a new certificate issued every 5 years and don’t care who did the original wiring as long as it’s up to standards and you pay them,  they will issue certificates.

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Adam E said:

I don’t know if the Inspection/test is different for new builds ? but plenty of sparks do inspections and testing for rented properties guesthouses etc which need a new certificate issued every 5 years and don’t care who did the original wiring as long as it’s up to standards and you pay them,  they will issue certificates.

 

 

For a new build (in Part P land) the EIC needs to be lodged on the database by someone who is a member of one of the Part P cartels.

 

An EICR can be undertaken by anyone that is qualified and competent, as it doesn't need to be lodged on any database.

 

I can do an EICR for anyone, and it's fine (accepting that there may be a liability issue if I've screwed up), but as I cannot be a member of one of the Part P cartels, because I'm retired, I cannot submit a Part P EIC for a new installation.

[ProDave]

9 minutes ago, Adam E said:

I don’t know if the Inspection/test is different for new builds ? but plenty of sparks do inspections and testing for rented properties guesthouses etc which need a new certificate issued every 5 years and don’t care who did the original wiring as long as it’s up to standards and you pay them,  they will issue certificates.

That's an EICR, Electrical Installation Condition Report.  That report makes it clear you are NOT inspecting hidden cables etc, only what you can see or test.

 

Part P is about cable routes, sticking to safe zones etc. You can't check for that in an EICR. 

 

Just to show how stupid the "rules" are, a couple of years ago the Scottish Government decreed that rental properties MUST have a valid EICR, ANDD that the EICR must be performed by a member of a scam.

 

So I am in the even more ridiculous situation that I can do an EICR for someone wanting to know the state of the wiring, perhaps pre purchase, I can do an EICR for a commercial customer, I can wire new builds and issue an EIC.  But unless I stump up £00's and jump through the hoops to join a scam, I cannot do an EICR if it's purpose is rental.

 

The rules get sillier and sillier.  Never mind 3 1/2 years and I won't have to bother any more.