Recirculating Shower System

[Adrian Walker]

Currently working with James & Emma on their self build house in Wareham and looking for a shower system.  Think that a Recirculating Shower System would be energy and water efficient and  Shower Loop System looks promising and open source too.

[PeterW]

From memory these don't meet WRAS or Building Regulations so it would have to be completely disconnected from the house supplies. The images on the site about using rainwater and solar heating it was a recipe for making some pretty nasty bacteria soup if you are not careful.

[Carrerahill]

It seems like a lot of difficult to recycle metal and plastics and other materials, maintenance and filters and fuss and money to save on some heating energy. I would just invest the money into some solar or ASHP etc. and just use that energy to heat my clean fresh water.

 

We are getting good at heating with renewable sources etc. people have ASHP and Solar and all sorts so heating isn't the issue it once was. I know people who have basically unlimited free hot water now, they use tumble-dryers that cost them £0 to run from an energy standpoint and create only one off carbon emissions (i.e. production emissions from manufacture of the systems). 

 

Water is not such a huge issue, the water board clean water for us for less than a penny a litre, it leaves your plughole as grey water, it easily cleans up and helps the dirtier waste water in the system to become more dilute.  

 

I see this more and more, we are trying to solve environmental issues by using more and more resources. Frankly the whole climate change movement is targeting many of the wrong industries and environmentally "dirty" objects.

 

 

 

[ProDave]

It looks a totally bizarre setup to me.

 

If I am understanding it correctly, the user needs to know exactly how it works and manipulate 6 individual switches to make it work?

 

By all means fit a heat recovery device to the shower waste to pre heat the cold water feeding into the shower, but I would not want something like that.

 

Okay for a boat perhaps where you only have a limited supply of stored water.

[Jeremy Harris]

Worth bearing in mind that there are pretty much always faecal bacteria in shower waste water, at least for those in the UK that rely on toilet paper for smearing the stuff around their backside.  For those that use a bidet or shattaf this may be less of a problem.

 

Not sure I'd like the idea of having diluted shit sprayed on my face, TBH...

[Pocster]

I’d love to see this installed ! , but not to use ..... ????

[jack]

I'm sure there was a discussion year or two about something like this, or maybe I read it elsewhere.

 

Just go for shower waste water heat recovery. While it doesn't save water, a properly installed system will return over 50% of the energy that would otherwise be lost straight down the drain. No moving parts to go wrong, and no need to bathe in your own crap. Win-win.

[Carrerahill]

Looking at the official parts list it uses activated carbon, sand filter and UV - the spec is, shall we say, loose! Bacteria needs to be zapped with a specific wavelength of UV for about 10-15 seconds, i.e. the water must travel slowly enough through a UV tube that the water is being exposed for 15 seconds, that is a slow flow rate, or a big long UV unit. Now I am not an expert in these matters but know enough to know that you cannot cobble together some filters and a cheapo eBay UV filter and have water with no bacteria of viruses present, if it was that simple then people could have little boxes clean up all their water!

 

The whole thing is going about an issue, that in my eyes isn't an issue, the wrong way. 

 

I honestly think that humanity is going about environmental issues the wrong way in many cases, the answer seems to be to generate vast amounts of carbon and pollution in order to solve something that didn't really need solved, or if it did, there is a better way. In reality it is back to the problem that creates pollution in the first time, greed. So people invent "green" solutions, that are actually just business plans! 

 

First thing would be to, encourage local businesses to setup and sell fruit and veg, meat, fish, general groceries, almost like a row of shops on a street would be a good idea! Then a street like this could exist every mile or so, then people like me would walk to these shops and pickup produce as they need it, but instead we drive cars once a week to the supermarket or if you plan like my wife every 2 days!

 

Every night after work our dog gets a walk, if it is my wife and I we often pop into our local Co-Op and pickup bits and pieces, I am going to buy a little rucksack so that I can take it with me when we go and start buying more locally when out on foot. During the bad snow people were panicking about getting to the shops, I didn't see an issue, I just got on my boots and walked, 4 mile round trip for Asda or about 2 for Co-Op, nice walk in the snow and had what we wanted for dinner. But apparently the world had come to an end. I know not everyone can do this for distance or health issues but really, as a nation we have just become so lazy and everything is such a bloody rush.  

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Carrerahill
Spelling

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

First thing would be to, encourage local businesses to setup and sell fruit and veg, meat, fish, general groceries, almost like a row of shops on a street would be a good idea! Then a street like this could exist every mile or so, then people like me would walk to these shops and pickup produce as they need it, but instead we drive cars once a week to the supermarket or if you plan like my wife every 2 days!

 

Very similar to Italy where the local Alimentari is the core of a village and you see a few in every small town. Everything from loo rolls to fresh cheese and meat, even the odd bottle of vino next to the light bulbs...

[Jeremy Harris]

Just in case anyone thinks that this system is OK because of the UV disinfection unit, it's worth noting a couple of things.  UV disinfection only works under a specific set of conditions. 

 

The UV tube has to have been on for a while to reach its specified output - when first turned on they tend not to emit anything like full power.  They also have a life that is limited by the number of start cycles - they do not like being switched on and off regularly, and replacement tubes (which are needed annually anyway if just left on all the time) tend to be about £30 to £40 each.

 

For UV treatment to work, the water has to be very clear, as bacteria and spores tend to stick to particulates and so avoid being exposed to UV as the water passes through the unit.  The water also has to be very clear in order to pass enough UV to provide a fatal dose to the bacteria and spores in the time taken for the water to flow through the unit.

 

Activated carbon filters are very prone to becoming a breeding ground for bacteria.  Anyone that has taken apart a carbon pond filter will have seen first hand just how much slime builds up in them.  Water from a shower is warm, so will promote bacterial growth within the carbon filter at a faster rate, and, because there is a very high probability of the water being too murky for UV sterilisation to work well, bacteria will be washed out of the carbon filter into the shower water.

 

To make this system even partially safe it needs an effective way of disinfecting the water that sits in part of the unit, which means heating it to over about 65°C for long enough to kill off the bugs.  The energy involved in doing that may well be greater than any energy saving, taking into account the running cost of the carbon filtration, pump, UV disinfection system etc.

 

As previously mentioned by @jack, the best solution by far is to just fit an approved waste water heat recovery unit.  The capital investment will probably be lower, and the running cost may well be lower, too, as the waste heat recovery units are virtually maintenance free.

[Carrerahill]

5 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Just in case anyone thinks that this system is OK because of the UV disinfection unit, it's worth noting a couple of things.  UV disinfection only works under a specific set of conditions. 

Absolutely, which is why really it's a fallacy using UV as the means of "cleaning" the water. 

 

As said above, the spec is not even clear on the UV aspect, so you will get people getting an Alibaba $10.00 special and expect all is safe!

[Pocster]

There!

That should do it!.

I've reduced the components and hence cost whilst still producing the same experience! 

[Jeremy Harris]

4 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

Absolutely, which is why really it's a fallacy using UV as the means of "cleaning" the water. 

 

As said above, the spec is not even clear on the UV aspect, so you will get people getting an Alibaba $10.00 special and expect all is safe!

 

 

That's a good point, as I made the mistake of buying five spare UV tubes for our unit from Aliexpress.  They were the right type and size, and about 1/3rd of the price of the ones sold by the UK supplier of our unit.  Out of the five, three were completely dud, in that they refuse to strike, even if preheated a bit to help them along, one did strike after about three goes, and seemed to work OK and one failed prematurely after about three months.  Luckily our UV unit has an alarm on it so we know when a lamp has failed, but it seems quite likely that some of the cheapo Chinese units may not have this, so someone could be unaware that their unit isn't working.

 

As an aside, if anyone is looking to buy a UV disinfection unit it's a very good idea to look around and see if the tubes it takes are a common type that are readily available from several different sources.  I made the mistake of buying a unit that takes a very odd size tube, that is only sold by one UK supplier, who charge an arm and leg for spares.  When my current stock of spare tubes runs out I'm going to replace the entire disinfection unit for one that takes a more common size of tube, as it will pay for itself within a couple of years just in replacement tube costs.

[Pocster]

Due to popular demand, extensive crowd funding and research we are proud to announce the new DX system with built in bidet.

Paypal payments accepted as is also cash.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by pocster

[Cpd]

@Adrian Walker I think what they are saying is it’s a bad idea.......

[Simplysimon]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Due to popular demand, extensive crowd funding and research we are proud to announce the new DX system with built in bidet.

Paypal payments accepted as is also cash.

 

 

the only issue i see with this system is that the sieve needs to be before the carbon filter to remove the larger particles. othe than that ?

[jack]

The sieve is clearly for aeration.

[Russell griffiths]

Well I think you all just pissed on the original posters fireworks. 

You bunch of meanies. 

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, Simplysimon said:

the only issue i see with this system is that the sieve needs to be before the carbon filter to remove the larger particles. othe than that ?

No no no .

The carbon filter has nano technology to break down any organic matter . The sieve is just a built in safety device . You know i’m Right .

[Pocster]

Anyway ! No one has asked the obvious question of the cost for either model .

[Pocster]

WRAS approval pending ! 

[Adrian Walker]

10 hours ago, Adrian Walker said:

Currently working with James & Emma on their self build house in Wareham and looking for a shower system.  Think that a Recirculating Shower System would be energy and water efficient and  Shower Loop System looks promising and open source too.

 

 

Please note that their solution is for off-grid.   I like the concept, but not the design solution.  There is no need for UV, just a filter.

 

[Pocster]

Someone bite !! ?

[Jeremy Harris]

18 hours ago, Adrian Walker said:

 

 

Please note that their solution is for off-grid.   I like the concept, but not the design solution.  There is no need for UV, just a filter.

 

 

Doesn't matter if it's a mains water supply or  private supply, it still makes no sense at all, and is a potentially very serious health risk.  As mentioned earlier, the filter will create a more serious health risk than not having one,  as the filter media will just act as a haven for bacterial growth, kept warm and fed with nutrients from the recirculating water.

 

The idea of spraying atomised, bacteria-laden water, within a habitable space seems madness.  People have died from Legionaire's contracted from tiny droplets spread on the wind downwind from outdoor cooling towers, let alone potentially more heavily contaminated droplets sprayed directly over people.

 

A simple, well-proven, off-the-shelf, heat recovery system would provide the same benefit, for less cost and complexity, with no added health risk.

[Adrian Walker]

32 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Doesn't matter if it's a mains water supply or  private supply, it still makes no sense at all, and is a potentially very serious health risk.  As mentioned earlier, the filter will create a more serious health risk than not having one,  as the filter media will just act as a haven for bacterial growth, kept warm and fed with nutrients from the recirculating water.

 

The idea of spraying atomised, bacteria-laden, within a habitable space seems madness.  People have died from Legionaire's contracted from tiny droplets spread on the wind downwind from outdoor cooling towers, let alone potentially more heavily contaminated droplets sprayed directly over people.

 

A simple, well-proven, off-the-shelf, heat recovery system would provide the same benefit, for less cost and complexity, with no added health risk.

 

OK.  If you use a waste water heat recovery unit, where are you going to put this energy?