Self build dream (nearly!) beginnings

[SuperJohnG]

 

Hi all,

 

I've been reading fro a few weeks on here back and forth and picking up bits of information which have been really helpful, so thanks for that! I'm based in Scotland just south of Glasgow. 

 

I've been looking to self build for around 5 years, without knowing if it would ever be a possibility. We have a young family (5 and 7 months) and for around the past two years have been looking for a new home in our local town as well as looking for plots to build. Our (I say ours I mean mine..and my wife has humoured me!) was to get a few acres close to the edge of town and build a hosue and live the dream with space to do whatever I liked.

 

I had written letters to landowners, searched tirelessly on google maps and  pestered about everbody I knew if they had heard of anything that wasn't on the radar but to no avail. Last year I found a good plot locally albeit the price was heavily inflated I went through the process of budgeting the costs getting connection prices for services etc. Eventually when I made an offer the landowner didn't want to negotiate and hence it seemed unlikely we would get anywhere so I had to walk away. 

 

We have looked at houses but everything we went to look at just didn't suit one way or another and self build has always been my dream but was looking unlikely. However a random facebook post on the local town page by me try to find any land led me to someone through a friend and the gist of it is. I am in the process of purchasing a 3.8 acre plot on the outskirts of town for a very reasonable price which comes with planning permission.

 

Currently I'm in state of sheet excitement and bag of nerves as I patiently wait for the transaction to go through (which won't be a problem).  I have a little work to do with removing an AG tie and ensuring services are at a reasonable cost but other than that we are nearly there.

 

I'm a Mechanical engineer..hence my need to understand and plan every meticulous detail (and tell everyone the best way to do things...as a typical engineer..I always know best!)

 

I have a budget and have a fairly complex development costs plan and also build budget so as to ensure I don't become a grand designs victim and will try to avoid an serious pitfalls thanks to all the posts here and research online.

 

I've budgeted 1200/m^2 and a 200m^2 house with 10% contingency for the actual build which i plan to keep to (like everyone!)

 

I'm quite keen on a SIPS build with passive slab foundation as it removes interfaces and steps in the process which albeit has more upfront costs makes sense for me as I work full time. My plan is to do the design with an architect (I've been talking to a few, but currently talking to RJM in Aberdeen as he is Timber/SIPS experienced and comes recommended from SIPS ECO) but haven't selected anyone yet. However I'm open to timber frame and that may well end up being the option we go for once the final costs are known. I'm after a well insulated high performing house but not passivhaus standard. 

 

I would like to get a supply and build from a package supplier up to wind and watertight then i will manage the subcontractors for joinery, electrical and plumbing (albeit most of that I will do myself), which will hopefully allow me to reduce costs somewhat. I am very focused on a fabric first approach to get the design right and layout that works for us. 

 

My approach is to take our time plan, plan, plan every stage and purchase. Then complete build from breaking ground in 7 months. I have however allowed 12.......but I hope it doesn't take that long.

 

I'm fortunate enough to be able to realise our dream (my wife is now excited also!) at this point in life (37!) if all goes well and very excited about building our forever house.

 

thanks fro reading!  

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

£1200 per square metre is the lower end, so you will need to be doing quite a lot yourself to achieve that.  Which leads on to 7 months from breaking ground to completion is tight, very tight.

 

I would suggest since you have the land, you look at a decent static caravan so you can live on site sooner, and have less pressure on a "must finish by" deadline.

[ToughButterCup]

And still they come, people Hell bent on skiing in front of an avalanche. Hell bent on living the nightmare. 

 

But we need, @SuperJohnG , posts like yours. Post like that  remind me (us) of how I felt, how we felt.  Man, I badly need to tap into that feeling today. So, thanks very much.

 

20 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

[...]

My approach is to take our time plan, plan, plan every stage and purchase.

[...]

 

Plan, plan, plan - that's the one. Coupled with network, network, network. You sound like a really well-organised family. Now, you just need make a bit more of your own luck . Look after yourselves.

Ian

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome.

 

As @ProDave has said, £1200/m² is achievable, but likely to be a bit tight, especially for a relatively expensive build system like SIPs, I think.  When interfacing SIPs panels to a passive slab there is some critical detailing to get absolutely spot-on at the sole plate/foundation interface, as SIPs panels need support on both the inner and outer faces (as the skins are load bearing) and this creates a bit of a challenge to get a thermal-bridge free junction (can be done, just needs care to make sure there's no dynamic interstitial condensation risk at the sole plate from rapid external temperature and humidity variation).

 

To complete within 7 months and come in under £1200/m² will mean some long working days of hard work, as you will need to do a fair bit of work yourself to keep the cost down.  As a guide, our build was a passive slab and frame package, where I did most of the work internally, after the house was wind and watertight (that process was quick, 4 days for the foundations, 4 1/2 days of frame erection to rain proof).  I had just taken early retirement, so could be on-site every working day.  Leaving out the time spent dealing with problems that weren't directly associated with the build itself, I spent about 3 years of full time effort on the build, and it came in at about £1380/m².  Much of the prolonged build time was because it took me much longer to do things than it would have taken a decent trades person.   At a guess I'd say that most jobs took me around three or four times longer to do many jobs, really just because I had to learn new skills, plus working on my own was much slower, especially when moving heavy or awkward stuff.

[Redoctober]

Welcome - I look forward to seeing this development unfold, so please do keep the reports coming. Yes, I would echo the sentiment that a 7 month build schedule on £1200p.s.m. is tight indeed. Don't go putting yourself under any unnecessary pressures as it will bite your backside!!

We managed a seven month build from breaking ground to moving in and I did was sweep up after the tradesmen!!. I didn't manage a £1200 p.s.m. budget either.

Good luck.

[Bitpipe]

Welcome and congrats on the hardest part - finding a plot!

 

Make sure you have costed professional services into your budget - your no doubt helpful architect will not be free, neither will structural engineers, ground investigations, project managers, building control inspectors etc before a spade hits the ground. They're also not zero rated for VAT !

 

Keep these services to a minimum and don't be afraid to dispense with them entirely once they've delivered their core job (i.e. architect has got planning etc). 

 

We lived on site in a 40x12ft caravan with kids who were 8 and 10 then and it was fine - smaller the better tbh (kids, not caravan). You buy one and sell it on after, our 18 months accommodation cost £800. All the more necessary if you plan to spend a lot of time on site doing work. Get your power, water and sewage / treatment sorted early and plug the van into these.

 

Turnkey frame is a great idea for the novice - removes most of the risk in one fell swoop. Many here used a passive twin wall system w. insulated slab (I went a step further and built an insulated basement) - do lots of cost comparisons and cross checking as various suppliers include/exclude different things. Our TF had all internal stud walls (not just structural) and temp stairs as part of the package. FT company also did all detailed design, calcs and I just handed their package to the BCO - no need for an architect to interpret.

 

We took a year and a month from demolition (start Aug) to moving in (end Aug following year). Frame started 13th November and by mid Jan scaff was down and we had a fully roofed, rendered water and airtight house.

 

1st fix can take a while to complete as trades can be hard to pin down so prepare for schedules to slip  - you get bursts of activity and then fallow weeks where nothing happens.

 

Our 2nd fix went fast as we were lucky to have a big enough house to allow trades to follow on after each other floor by floor i.e. plaster was drying in basement while painters were at work on ground floor and joiner was working upstairs. Doesn't always work like that so you will have gaps between wet trades as they normally need the place to themselves. Landscaping etc can happen after you move in  but keep an eye on your completion and VAT reclaim eligibility.

 

 

 

 

[nod]

1200 is Doable 

We have recently completed 284m2 at £830 m2 

 it As Dave pointed out a quick build is usually expensive

Its taken us over just over two years from breaking ground  

[LA3222]

Welcome, this forum is an endless font of useful info and im sure that like myself, you will find it a great resource.

 

I too am building with SIP.  I have my foundation design from Tanners and the SIP design done.  Pulling it all together for building regs.

 

@JSHarris you are at it again - 

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

When interfacing SIPs panels to a passive slab there is some critical detailing to get absolutely spot-on at the sole plate/foundation interface, as SIPs panels need support on both the inner and outer faces (as the skins are load bearing) and this creates a bit of a challenge to get a thermal-bridge free junction (can be done, just needs care to make sure there's no dynamic interstitial condensation risk at the sole plate from rapid external temperature and humidity variation).

Surely this is equally true of standard timber frame construction (as I understand things?‍♂️) as well as SIP.  Your comment portrays it as a SIP only problem and paints SIPs in a bad light relative to other methods of construction.  

 

Yes I get this problem exists u like with your own 'Larson Truss' method but it is not unique to SIP. 

 

If I'm wrong then I will eat humble pie, once I understand why I am wrong ? 

[Simplysimon]

welcome from another south of glasgow. all i can say is, good luck with the timescale and even more so with removing the tie, hope it all works out

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, LA3222 said:

@JSHarris you are at it again - 

Surely this is equally true of standard timber frame construction (as I understand things?‍♂️) as well as SIP.  Your comment portrays it as a SIP only problem and paints SIPs in a bad light relative to other methods of construction.  

 

Yes I get this problem exists u like with your own 'Larson Truss' method but it is not unique to SIP. 

 

If I'm wrong then I will eat humble pie, once I understand why I am wrong ? 

 

 

The main difference is that a timber frame (like our twin stud) can be designed so that all the structural loads are taken on the inside member, with no load on the outboard one.  In our case the inboard stud bears on 100mm of concrete and the outer stud bears on a 200mm wide bit of EPS.

 

SIPs is different, in that both the inside and outside skins are equally loaded, so both edges of the sole plate need to bear on something load bearing, like concrete.  You can't easily use the same sort of thermal bridge free passive slab that we have with SIPs, so care needs to be taken to design the detail at the base to both support both side of the SIPs panel and also to ensure that there's no thermal bridge at this point.  It can be done, just needs a bit of careful detailing to get it right.   Adding external insulation at the sole plate is one solution (there are others). 

 

There was a thread about this on Ebuild, where Kingspan SIPs got involved, where the issue was discussed in depth, as it was clear that this particular potential gotcha hadn't been thought about in terms of dynamic interstitial condensation risk.  A design can look OK on a static condensation risk analysis, as this may not accurately model the sort of dynamic changes that can drive water vapour in from outside, towards a region that may be below the local dewpoint.  This then needs a significant heat input, to an area that may well be normally cool, to evaporate moisture out again.  In the debate on Ebuild, Kingspan agreed that adding a layer of insulation around the perimeter, would adequately mitigate the risk.  The dynamic risk does depend a fair bit on other elements of the design, including the type of external rainshield skin used.

[LA3222]

56 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

The main difference is that a timber frame (like our twin stud)

So, what I take from that is a twin stud is different (as I already knew).  But a 140mm stud frame (The majority of TF) sits on a 140mm soleplate in the same way that a SIP panel does - so the problem applies equally to both?

 

There is no inside/outside member for 140mm stud so it is no different to SIP sitting on a 140mm sole plate.

 

So when you comment about SIP being subject to interstitial issues it is misleading as the wording implies this applies to SIP and not others when in reality it applies to most TF structures?

Edited September 17, 2019 by LA3222

[LA3222]

As an aside, you mention 

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

so both edges of the sole plate need to bear on something load bearing, like concrete.  

The design TSD did for me has the inner bulk of the soleplate on the slab with the outer bit sat on insulation - abeit only about 40mm thick at the top.  Not sure how this performs in terms of heat loss as a thermal bridge!!?‍♂️

[LA3222]

Also, apologies for jacking your thread @SuperJohnG, you will find they can take on a life of their own!.

 

Good luck with the plot purchase?

[Thedreamer]

5 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

 

Hi all,

 

I've been reading fro a few weeks on here back and forth and picking up bits of information which have been really helpful, so thanks for that! I'm based in Scotland just south of Glasgow. 

 

I've been looking to self build for around 5 years, without knowing if it would ever be a possibility. We have a young family (5 and 7 months) and for around the past two years have been looking for a new home in our local town as well as looking for plots to build. Our (I say ours I mean mine..and my wife has humoured me!) was to get a few acres close to the edge of town and build a hosue and live the dream with space to do whatever I liked.

 

I had written letters to landowners, searched tirelessly on google maps and  pestered about everbody I knew if they had heard of anything that wasn't on the radar but to no avail. Last year I found a good plot locally albeit the price was heavily inflated I went through the process of budgeting the costs getting connection prices for services etc. Eventually when I made an offer the landowner didn't want to negotiate and hence it seemed unlikely we would get anywhere so I had to walk away. 

 

We have looked at houses but everything we went to look at just didn't suit one way or another and self build has always been my dream but was looking unlikely. However a random facebook post on the local town page by me try to find any land led me to someone through a friend and the gist of it is. I am in the process of purchasing a 3.8 acre plot on the outskirts of town for a very reasonable price which comes with planning permission.

 

Currently I'm in state of sheet excitement and bag of nerves as I patiently wait for the transaction to go through (which won't be a problem).  I have a little work to do with removing an AG tie and ensuring services are at a reasonable cost but other than that we are nearly there.

 

I'm a Mechanical engineer..hence my need to understand and plan every meticulous detail (and tell everyone the best way to do things...as a typical engineer..I always know best!)

 

I have a budget and have a fairly complex development costs plan and also build budget so as to ensure I don't become a grand designs victim and will try to avoid an serious pitfalls thanks to all the posts here and research online.

 

I've budgeted 1200/m^2 and a 200m^2 house with 10% contingency for the actual build which i plan to keep to (like everyone!)

 

I'm quite keen on a SIPS build with passive slab foundation as it removes interfaces and steps in the process which albeit has more upfront costs makes sense for me as I work full time. My plan is to do the design with an architect (I've been talking to a few, but currently talking to RJM in Aberdeen as he is Timber/SIPS experienced and comes recommended from SIPS ECO) but haven't selected anyone yet. However I'm open to timber frame and that may well end up being the option we go for once the final costs are known. I'm after a well insulated high performing house but not passivhaus standard. 

 

I would like to get a supply and build from a package supplier up to wind and watertight then i will manage the subcontractors for joinery, electrical and plumbing (albeit most of that I will do myself), which will hopefully allow me to reduce costs somewhat. I am very focused on a fabric first approach to get the design right and layout that works for us. 

 

My approach is to take our time plan, plan, plan every stage and purchase. Then complete build from breaking ground in 7 months. I have however allowed 12.......but I hope it doesn't take that long.

 

I'm fortunate enough to be able to realise our dream (my wife is now excited also!) at this point in life (37!) if all goes well and very excited about building our forever house.

 

thanks fro reading!  

 

 

 

 

 

Have you obtained a mortgage yet?

Edited September 17, 2019 by Thedreamer

[SuperJohnG]

50 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

 

Have you obtained a mortgage yet?

 @Thedreamer I've talked to build store and in principal they are saying I can get the funds.  But still to do the full application. I was surprised at how costly that was. Somewhere in the region of 15k just to borrow money for 12 months. Anything to be wary of? 

[SuperJohnG]

4 hours ago, nod said:

1200 is Doable 

We have recently completed 284m2 at £830 m2 

 it As Dave pointed out a quick build is usually expensive

Its taken us over just over two years from breaking ground  

@nod That's very impressive. My budget originally started at 950...but I quickly realised in talking to architects and kit suppliers it was fairly unrealistic. There is hope for my 1200 target then! 

[SuperJohnG]

2 hours ago, Simplysimon said:

welcome from another south of glasgow. all i can say is, good luck with the timescale and even more so with removing the tie, hope it all works out

Thanks @Simplysimon what sort of stage are you at? 

[SuperJohnG]

1 hour ago, LA3222 said:

Also, apologies for jacking your thread @SuperJohnG, you will find they can take on a life of their own!.

 

Good luck with the plot purchase?

Thanks @LA3222. Who did you use for your sis supplier out of curiosity? 

[SuperJohnG]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Lots to learn and plenty to debate over ..looking forward to the whole process. Maybe once I'm done I'll revisit this thread and update it to with what actually happens...

[Thedreamer]

19 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

 @Thedreamer I've talked to build store and in principal they are saying I can get the funds.  But still to do the full application. I was surprised at how costly that was. Somewhere in the region of 15k just to borrow money for 12 months. Anything to be wary of? 

 

I looked at build store, try the Scottish Building Society, for us much better value for money.

 

I note your aged, I'm 33 and have two young kids. It can be done but you have to be prepared to sacrifice family time. 

 

Also worth considering the self builder's triangle, you have three sides, time, cost and quality. You can't have all three just two, might be worth thinking which are most important to you.

 

[SuperJohnG]

10 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

 

I looked at build store, try the Scottish Building Society, for us much better value for money.

 

I note your aged, I'm 33 and have two young kids. It can be done but you have to be prepared to sacrifice family time. 

 

Also worth considering the self builder's triangle, you have three sides, time, cost and quality. You can't have all three just two, might be worth thinking which are most important to you.

 

Thanks @Thedreamer

 

Thanks for the heads up. Build store just seemed to talk a good game but when I got into it there were a LOT of fees. 

 

We are prepared for the sacrifice but I'm.surenitll be worth it.

 

I've been reading the housebuilders bible...so fully prepared for the cost and time to go up...I've allowed an extra 5 months and if need be an extra 10-20% if need be. Hooefully get a better idea during design and see where we get to. 

[Thedreamer]

6 minutes ago, SuperJohnG said:

Thanks @Thedreamer

 

Thanks for the heads up. Build store just seemed to talk a good game but when I got into it there were a LOT of fees. 

 

We are prepared for the sacrifice but I'm.surenitll be worth it.

 

I've been reading the housebuilders bible...so fully prepared for the cost and time to go up...I've allowed an extra 5 months and if need be an extra 10-20% if need be. Hooefully get a better idea during design and see where we get to. 

 

Yes I had to get a pad of paper when the fees were listed to me.

 

Good call on the home builders buyer, I have a copy of this as well.

 

We started this ball rolling for us when I was 22 ?

[nod]

6 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

@nod That's very impressive. My budget originally started at 950...but I quickly realised in talking to architects and kit suppliers it was fairly unrealistic. There is hope for my 1200 target then! 

1200 is definitely achievable 

But as already pointed out You need to do a lot of the with yourself 

We could have easily gone under that figure if we had lowered the spec 

If you look back on my lost from about a week ago I was asked about the spec on our house 

It May help you 

 

[LA3222]

7 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

Thanks @LA3222. Who did you use for your sis supplier out of curiosity? 

Glosford.  I note you mentioned SIPs ECO which is a slightly different type of SIP.  IIRC they bond EPS panels to the OSB skin, slightly reduced U Value so potentially thicker panels required.  The type I intend to use have liquid PUR injected into them which then expands and bonds with the wood.

 

Many ways to skin a cat.  I spent a long time dithering on whether to go with Glosford or Fleming, I found MBC to be pricey but it may be that when the dust settles MBC aren't comparatively much more expensive.  I'm normally decisive but this had me going in circles as so difficult to choose.  There are so many variables to consider such as what time of your own can be put into the project.  Glosford sat in the middle between Fleming and MBC price wise so I went with it - I also prefer a SIP roof as it gives me clear space in the attic with no trusses to negotiate around.

 

I am similar to yourself, 37 with an 8 & 9 yr old.  The missus and kids live onsite in a caravan whilst I live down south during the week so them being onsite helps as I go 'home' to the site every weekend and can work on the build.  The downside is they have to live in a caravan which will likely be grim come winter.  I sat the kids down and discussed the choice with them and they all wanted to be there and they are mentally prepared for up to 2 yrs like that. 

 

You can save a lot of money by doing work yourself but it's never free, you'll have to sacrifice time with the family to do so.  I'm sure that like the rest of us on here you will look at the bigger picture and know it will be worth it in the end.

 

Wish I had 3.8 acres - I have 1/2!!

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, LA3222 said:

The downside is they have to live in a caravan which will likely be grim come winter.  I sat the kids down and discussed the choice with them and they all wanted to be there and they are mentally prepared for up to 2 yrs like that. 

 

Top tip for winter in a caravan (I did 18 months with wife & 2 kids) is to run a dehumidifier and avoid the gas fire. Reason is the gas fires create a lot of water vapour as a by product of combustion and at night, this condenses out onto the floor making it cold and damp in the morning.

 

We switched to a Meaco de-humidifier and ran it in the evenings instead, it pumps out a decent amount of heat and leaves the air much dryer (I appreciate that as caravans are not sealed, you're dehumidifying the local area to some degree). Difference was immediately noticeable - no cold feet in the morning.

 

I found summer much more unpleasant as the caravan got uncomfortably hot very quickly in direct sun - however as the orientation of the van was the same as the house, it inspired us to get external motorised shutters for the east and south aspects of the build so at least we learned something!

Edited September 18, 2019 by Bitpipe