Basic cement/ ballast Q

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Ok

 

last joist with the small gap, you measure the gap, attach a noggin of the right length to the joist, and then fit the joist to the hangers - just leaves you the open end to nail on. 

 

Hang on its not the last small noggin thats the prob.. as I get access to fix it however small, via the outside/ 400mm gap.

 

So its getting access to the last-but-one normal nog.. within the small gap. Unless I train a chimp with chimp small nail & hammer to get in there I cant fix it. Or am I the chimp? who the fk is teaching who here?

[Carrerahill]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

worrying unless they are properly strength rated due to differing stainless specs ...

 

And I get your point on nails but these are for noggins hidden under a deck. 

Fischer fastenings for the lot, about £75 a box for 90's. Good nails, they take a lot to bend, but will then take a hell of a bend, I see a lot of framing nails simply shear off when you are violet towards them, indeed plenty also just bend too, but any of the SS nails I used to temp nail stuff during the TF build took a hammering to undo - to the point I switched to some 75mm galv's for temp work as they came out easier. 

 

The 35's I got for my fence 2 years ago are galv and holding up well, but a temp fence during the build was dismantled last month - I could loosen the bottom of the board and pull it upwards, almost all the nails sheared. The metallurgy there suggests they have been hardened and left brittle or too high a chrome content in the steel etc.

[Gone West]

7 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

I concur with Starcky!

Haven't been called that since primary school .

[Gone West]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So its getting access to the last-but-one normal nog.. within the small gap.

If they're all equally spaced there's no problem. Just as difficult for all of them .

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Will I have enough room to get a hammer  @ my nogs tho?

Use the side of the hammer if necessary with pre-drilled holes in the joists so the 100mm nails only have 50mm to drive them in.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

If they're all equally spaced there's no problem. Just as difficult for all of them .

 

This is what I'll do as hiring a chimp is expensive now @ £150/ day.. 3 weeks.. £450.

 

 

 

[andyscotland]

3 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

If they're all equally spaced there's no problem. Just as difficult for all of them .

 

@zoothorn or, put the noggins in as you go, and fix them to one joist first.

 

E.g. nail a noggin to the middle of your first joist. Put the joist in position with the noggin facing into the open space. Put another noggin between first joist and outside frame (you have easy access to both ends.

 

Now, nail a noggin to your second joist, offset the other side of centre. Put the second joist in position and nail through it to the noggin from the first joist.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

This way you're always nailing from open space.

 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, andyscotland said:

 

@zoothorn or, put the noggins in as you go, and fix them to one joist first.

 

E.g. nail a noggin to the middle of your first joist. Put the joist in position with the noggin facing into the open space. Put another noggin between first joist and outside frame (you have easy access to both ends.

 

Now, nail a noggin to your second joist, offset the other side of centre. Put the second joist in position and nail through it to the noggin from the first joist.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

This way you're always nailing from open space.

 

 

I think I understand thanks.

 

As the nogs are only extra surity, not for surface fixing to.. is it sensible to push them down a mite below surface so whatever sits above isn't jiggered by the odd nog protruding a wee bit? (innevitable on some surely if going for a surface flush perfect finish).

 

Then I'm onto insulating it.. & then what's the idea, to top it with some form of ply? is this neccessary?

[andyscotland]

53 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I think I understand thanks.

 

As the nogs are only extra surity, not for surface fixing to.. is it sensible to push them down a mite below surface so whatever sits above isn't jiggered by the odd nog protruding a wee bit? (innevitable on some surely if going for a surface flush perfect finish).

 

You could, or clamp the joint into a bit of a sandwich with ply/OSB either side to hold it flush and square as you nail it. But for your case I'd probably just recess them a tiny bit as you suggest.

 

Quote

Then I'm onto insulating it.. & then what's the idea, to top it with some form of ply? is this neccessary?

 

Depends what you're putting on top. For decking people normally just put the decking boards straight on. If you're going for your exposed balcony bit still (lost track, sorry) then decking boards with a small gap between will ensure water can get through and off the deck. 

 

For the cabin something like exterior grade OSB or wbp ply might be enough (instead of decking) depends what's cheaper/easier to source/easier to handle on your own.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

 

You could, or clamp the joint into a bit of a sandwich with ply/OSB either side to hold it flush and square as you nail it. But for your case I'd probably just recess them a tiny bit as you suggest.

 

 

Depends what you're putting on top. For decking people normally just put the decking boards straight on. If you're going for your exposed balcony bit still (lost track, sorry) then decking boards with a small gap between will ensure water can get through and off the deck. 

 

For the cabin something like exterior grade OSB or wbp ply might be enough (instead of decking) depends what's cheaper/easier to source/easier to handle on your own.

 

Ok the idea is, a log cabin going on/ above where the 4x corner pads are. So is it neccessary to put a layer of board/ osb or wpb ply ontop of the joists as a bed before the cabin goes on? I just ask bc pricing marine grade ply means 2 sheets at £75 each: alot extra I hadn't accounted for.

 

The front bit is a deck, so will cover this bit last with decking.. unless, I need something on the joists & before it too-?

 

 

[andyscotland]

6 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Ok the idea is, a log cabin going on/ above where the 4x corner pads are. So is it neccessary to put a layer of board/ osb or wpb ply ontop of the joists as a bed before the cabin goes on? I just ask bc pricing marine grade ply means 2 sheets at £75 each: alot extra I hadn't accounted for.

 

The front bit is a deck, so will cover this bit last with decking.. unless, I need something on the joists & before it too-?

 

 

 

Oh yeah if the cabin above already has a floor then just stick it on your structure, no need to board. I presumed from your Q maybe it was just walls and a roof.

 

And the front open deck just put the deck boards direct onto the frame with a gap between each for drainage/expansion. This obviously assumes your frame/joists line up to support both ends of the deck boards (not sure of your orientation).

 

One thought, if your cabin sits atop the frame then presumably there's a void between cabin floor and the insulation between your joists? May be worth putting insulation around the perimeter of the cabin base otherwise heat will get out the sides there and reduce the effectiveness of your celotex below.

[PeterW]

Ok - you do not need Marine Ply..!!! 
 

OSB3 or Standard Exterior ply would be fine. 
 

As this is outdoors though, I would be inclined to do it slightly differently so nothing can get to the insulation. 
 

I would lay a 15mm OSB deck, then run a ring beam (simple 3x2 on flat) round the sides where the cabin will stand, and then infil the centre section with 50mm Celotex. Cabin floor goes straight on top and the sandwich is protected from the elements. 

[joe90]

Scaffold planks make good rustic decking and you can buy new “seconds”.

[zoothorn]

33 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok - you do not need Marine Ply..!!! 
 

OSB3 or Standard Exterior ply would be fine. 
 

As this is outdoors though, I would be inclined to do it slightly differently so nothing can get to the insulation. 
 

I would lay a 15mm OSB deck, then run a ring beam (simple 3x2 on flat) round the sides where the cabin will stand, and then infil the centre section with 50mm Celotex. Cabin floor goes straight on top and the sandwich is protected from the elements. 

 

Ok good- no marine ply expense!

 

I'm roughly on board with this idea Peter.. tho it does raise me up 50mm (already I'm a bit high tbh.. & prob tipping the crucial 4m mark height, if some sod wants to measure from the lowest area of exposed rigid black tube that is [below lower pillar pads] to apex of cabin roof that is.. if measured from onwards 2/3m down from very btm of pipe up- Im really stuffed).. you see my new n'bors already prowling a bit down here, & may well check with planning I'm allowed to do this project.

 

Ok so the OSB sheet doesn't extend to the perimeter of frame, but 3" inward of this.. so moisture won't get to its edge. Is that the idea?

[PeterW]

It’s 4m from the ground level so would be from the ground to one side - not from the lowest point. 
 

Stop panicking .... 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

It’s 4m from the ground level so would be from the ground to one side - not from the lowest point. 
 

Stop panicking .... 

 

Sorry hang on a mo.. where is the ground level measured from again in my case tho if my ground level's all on a 45* slope? it surely could be said to go from approx where my low-side tubes are exposed a 1ft or so.. or from 1ft below the floor, on the top side.

[PeterW]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Sorry hang on a mo.. where is the ground level measured from again in my case tho if my ground level's all on a 45* slope? it surely could be said to go from approx where my low-side tubes are exposed a 1ft or so.. or from 1ft below the floor, on the top side.

STOP PANICKING ..!!!

From this document which is the technical guidance on Planning Permission. 
 

 

Any buildings within the curtilage can only have one storey. Buildings with more than one storey are not permitted development and will require an application for planning permission.
(e) the height of the building, enclosure or container would exceed -
(i) 4 metres in the case of a building with a dual-pitched roof,
(ii) 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within 2 metres of the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse, or
(iii) 3 metres in any other case

The height of the building, enclosure or container should be measured from the highest ground level immediately adjacent to the building, enclosure, or container to its highest point.

 

As long as it has dual pitch roof and is more than 2m from your boundary, then it is max 4m from the ground next to it ....

[jamiehamy]

8 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

This is what I'll do as hiring a chimp is expensive now @ £150/ day.. 3 weeks.. £450.

 

 

 

? 

[zoothorn]

Ok thanks for the info Peter.. it's still room for interpretation (in my view) by pesky sods tho. IE if the "building" includes the pillars.. & the ground's measured from here.. I am at cusp of 4m (& +50mm is crucial). I sometimes don't worry totally unneccessarily you know.

[zoothorn]

On 25/10/2019 at 17:27, PeterW said:

STOP PANICKING ..!!!

 

 

Peter- can I pick up on your idea of laying another frame of 3x2 (on its side).. & filling the centre with 50mm celotex.

 

I get the idea, but not the OSB sheet onto which -I think- the c'tex will need to sit. Afaict this OSB looks moisture-prone on its edges (I think its chipboard?). So unless its shielded/ goes inside of the new outer 3x2 frame, its edges will be exposed to weather. But, if its put inside the c'tex will protrude up 12mm or 15mm above the new frame.

 

I was going to put joists in today, but not sure exactly at what height to fix them.. IE.. in order to negate this 12 or 15mm protrusion, maybe your idea was to set the joists -down- by this ammount, so the c'tex top will be flush with the 3x2 frame-?

[Declan52]

Fix the joists so they are the same height as the edge beams.

Then you lay your osb over the complete deck that the shed sits on. 

Around the edge where the shed sits you use 3x2 and build the shed of the top of this. 

Inside will be a 50mm ish step down onto the osb which you in fill with the 50mm insulation. 

On top of which you lay your final floor. 

Once it's all up you can go round and paint the edge of the osb and 3x2 to match your shed colour. 

[zoothorn]

On 25/10/2019 at 16:20, joe90 said:

Scaffold planks make good rustic decking and you can buy new “seconds”.

 

Good idea- I know where to get some too. I don't much like that decking stuff/ too 'london boho'.

 

Joe if you have ideas on PeterW's idea on a 3x2 outer frame (on its side) for insulation, ontop of my base as it is now this is..

 

..or anyone else?

 

I can't get my head around it, or know what I'm doing to get a layer of insulation between my base/ joists & below my cabin.

 

Thanks all- zoot

[zoothorn]

38 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Fix the joists so they are the same height as the edge beams.

Then you lay your osb over the complete deck that the shed sits on. 

Around the edge where the shed sits you use 3x2 and build the shed of the top of this. 

Inside will be a 50mm ish step down onto the osb which you in fill with the 50mm insulation. 

On top of which you lay your final floor. 

Once it's all up you can go round and paint the edge of the osb and 3x2 to match your shed colour. 

 

Ok understood. So the shed will sit on the OSB.. but I'd have thought over time this would be the fallible 'layer' you see.. especially here as its rainforest wet.. so is it defo ok to put the cabin walls (the cabin load) onto the perimeter of the OSB?

 

Are you suggesting the way a typical log cabin is built, is the floor is put in last/ so I can build it standing on the OSB.. then once roof on, fit insulation > floor inside?

 

What if there is a time delay between the OSB layer & cabin onto it? IE rain on the OSB?

[joe90]

Yes @zoothorn ! @PeterW idea is good, I would do it, I am sure someone will do you a diagram if you need one ( I am only any good with crayon ?). On the height issue just dump some soil around it to make up a couple of inches.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Yes @zoothorn ! @PeterW idea is good, I would do it, I am sure someone will do you a diagram if you need one ( I am only any good with crayon ?). On the height issue just dump some soil around it to make up a couple of inches.

 

Yes going with Peter's idea, just trying to get my head fully around it.

 

You mean my overall 4m height?