Fan Coil Units for use with a (cooling) ASHP

[Ommm]

When I looked at this, one solution was an Italian 'forwarding' company.  The package is delivered to them, then they send it by courier to the UK.  That opened up a lot of options from suppliers who would only ship to Italy.  I have that setup for buying things from the US and Japan and it works well - they obviously know how to do the customs right (and I don't think it's that complicated - it's not like cheese or sausages.  You just need to work out the tariff code and country of origin).

 

However I didn't manage to find an Italian forwarder - first of all they need to be able to handle large items (not just handbags) and they need to have options for surface freight.  There was one who claimed to do it but said they were full up at the time.  Perhaps another look might turn someone up.

 

(I now have a Daikin FCU awaiting installation but it came from ebay UK, so a simple courier collection sufficed for that)

[eniacs]

I will try that, but like you say there may not be very many from italy to the uk, aside from handbags there isnt a huge amount moving that way.

 

I wonder if there is a PO box i could use in france and just pop over and pick them up. Most of them seem happy to ship to the EU, just not to the UK now we are out of the eu! 

 

 

[eniacs]

For anyone looking for fan coils in the uk now, coolenergy retail a line of chinese units called "Reverso" made for the italian market mainly, they are eye wateringly expensive but look good quality as well. 

 

They can be found on alibaba for far less, but suppliers seem unwilling to send small quantities. They did however supply the full catalogue which isnt on coolenergy's site so I've attached it here. Shame coolenergy dont supply the whole line, it looks good.

 

 

1239237613_CatalogoReversoAccessori2022-compressed.pdf

[eniacs]

Ok i'm making progress. The innova units ive got a quote for 7 and are coming in about £500 each. Painful, but our designer normal rads were about £200 each 8 years ago, so probably 300 now. These new rads are electronically controlled and do cooling so maybe i can pursuade myself that they are an upgrade.

 

The supplier has offered valves to close off flow once they are at temp. Is this necesary? The controller will also stop the fan, so minimal heat will be coming out. The valve set is another £70 per rad.

[Wil]

I have one of the Cool Energy Reverso units. Since curing the fan imbalance issue which was driving me nuts, it’s been great.

 

However it has no valve on it, so when the heating pump is running, hot water flows through it and it acts as a basic radiator at all times. As the room it’s in will never get too hot, this isn’t an issue, but some sort of electronic valve would probably have made more sense. A simple electronic actuator and a TRV body would sort it out for less than 70!

[Triladika]

How is everyone connecting the condensate drain? I've only been able to find American examples where they just have a pipe sticking out of the side of the house, which isn't very Passivhaus friendly.

[sean1933]

On 06/02/2023 at 01:12, Triladika said:

How is everyone connecting the condensate drain? I've only been able to find American examples where they just have a pipe sticking out of the side of the house, which isn't very Passivhaus friendly.

 

Waterless trap straight into the soil stack should do the job.

[sean1933]

On 04/11/2022 at 16:51, joth said:

 

 

So.

I still haven't got around to installing that second FCU that I bought on ebay back in, what?? July. (Were does the time go? Oh yeah I know)

And now I noticed that the Panasonic FC-D15 I originally was looking to purchase is (possibly?) available in the UK now:

https://www.saturnsales.co.uk/Panasonic-Aquarea-PAW-FC2A-Ducted Fan Coils.html

 

They appear to have arsed about with their numbering scheme, latest brochure says that the  FC-D15-1(-R)  I ordered way back in 2020 is now known as the FC2A-D020[L/R] but otherwise the specs seem identical. It seems the main thing is they've now introduced 4-pipe versions of each too.

 

Anyway, if people are looking to source FCUs in the UK, there maybe another option now.

 

Did you ever proceed with this source Joth and if so what was your experience? 

 

I'm planning a similar setup to yours (inc Loxone control eventually). I have the same ASHP (although 14kw) and after researching air flow issues have written off the MVHR cooling solution. Will use UFH cooling downstairs but plan to at least plumb for FCU's upstairs. I'm in 2 minds whether to buy units now or see how the summer goes as the budget is shot and we may not need cooling (very likely though!) . We wont finish until end of the year I imagine, so time to fit in autumn before final decorating.

 

Out of interest what size feed pipes did you use to the FCU's from plant room? We have 4 bedrooms in total upstairs, 2 on either side of the house that could theoretically share 2x ducted units if sized appropriately, or alternatively an FCU per bedroom. I'm not sure what sort of water flow these FCU's need. If I run vapour sealed(insulated) 22mm Hep2O to each side of the house will that suffice, or do I need larger if each feed may run 2 FCU's?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[joth]

@sean1933 no I am still trying to plumb in the second hand unbranded one I got. Managed to get someone to quote me for it last week. I should learn to solder pipes it seems.

 

22mm pipe sounds good. My guy only ran 15mm to the loft, which it'd been a bit more as there's a risk the short cycling is all due to that skinny pipe size. 

 

If future proofing, think about how you'll install large air vents to the rooms now at least. Retrofitting them around wires and joists is a pita. Or plan to use wall mounted FCU in each room, which needs some allowance for pipework inc. condensate drain.

 

[eniacs]

Repiping and radiator install.

 

Insulating every bit of exposed pipe is actually quite a faff.

 

This is one radiator (well FCU). Each has to be done, all new piping, all new insulation and a power connection too.

[JoeBano]

Which brand is that you are fitting? I was looking at myson ivector a bit pricey they look good heating and cooling. 

[eniacs]

Joe, these are italian, Innova brand. I got them shipped from italy, they were a good price in italy, (around 450euro each including the controller) however once they got here i paid around £650 each. I was charged 2 x VAT sadly, a victim of Brexit.

 

I also looked at the ivector's, they look good. Daikin do Innova stuff in the UK, no idea on pricing though. Would be worth finding out, i doubt they have to pay 2x VAT to get them in the country so could be good value.

[Dave Jones]

interesting.....

 

These are also on my todo list on our current build, I want them built into the stud walls though so all that is visible is the grill.

 

BPC sell the Panasonic one

 

https://www.bpcventilation.com/panasonic-fan-coil-unit

 

[eniacs]

Dave, the panasonic ones are rebranded Innova's. They are good quality. Not sure they are quite worth 800each but im not dissapointed in them. 

 

Innova do built into the wall units, Daikin do some of them too. You can also build them into the ceiling.

 

 

[puntloos]

I always thought you needed the same brand FCUs as ASHP since the 2 can talk to each other (calling heat when needed etc). 

Am I wrong? Are un-linked FCUs just cooling with whatever coolant (at whatever temp) is available? 

[joth]

8 minutes ago, puntloos said:

I always thought you needed the same brand FCUs as ASHP since the 2 can talk to each other (calling heat when needed etc). 

Am I wrong? Are un-linked FCUs just cooling with whatever coolant (at whatever temp) is available? 

It depends.

Refrigerant based FCUs tend to have controller for the outdoor unit built in, so yes mini split AC need to be carefo matched. Normally bought as a package.

At the other end Water based FCUs are as dumb as you like. Just a pipe, heat exchanger and a multispeed fan. Nothing there to call for heat from anything. Mix it with any source of hot or cold water you like. BYO controller (hint: Loxone server works great for this). I'm using mitsubishi ASHP with Panasonic (systemair) FCU and I  got another unbranded one ready to install that was  ripped out of a cafe renovation.

 

In-between you have refrigerate based 4 pipe commercial FCUs.  These are like the water based ones, but a bit more complex plumbing. Electrically still fairly dumb 

 

HTH.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by joth

[JoeBano]

Did you insulate the pipes back to the heat pump eniacs? 

[ReedRichards]

I would love to see a picture of the finished FCU.  As a work-in-progress it looks quite ugly but I'm hoping it will look nice when finished.

[eniacs]

See attached, apologies I've literally snapped a few photos late in the evening when i had 5 mins spare. Some damage still on walls and piping not 100%, but getting there. Still got a small run to this rad left and the main 28mm run out to the heat pump and the UVC to buy and put in place (have a plumber friend who will actually connect this for UVC rules).

 

All piping is lagged, its taken so much time to do and been very fiddly, still i dont think it is 100%. In the first photo you can see a bare pipe next to an insulated run of piping, my youngest (18 months old) walked in proudly showing us the insulation he had managed to tear off. Once completed the idea is to run the HP in cooling mode through the summer and heating of course in winter, so lagging was one of the most important issues here.

 

 

 

 

[NSS]

26 minutes ago, eniacs said:

See attached, apologies I've literally snapped a few photos late in the evening when i had 5 mins spare. Some damage still on walls and piping not 100%, but getting there. Still got a small run to this rad left and the main 28mm run out to the heat pump and the UVC to buy and put in place (have a plumber friend who will actually connect this for UVC rules).

 

All piping is lagged, its taken so much time to do and been very fiddly, still i dont think it is 100%. In the first photo you can see a bare pipe next to an insulated run of piping, my youngest (18 months old) walked in proudly showing us the insulation he had managed to tear off. Once completed the idea is to run the HP in cooling mode through the summer and heating of course in winter, so lagging was one of the most important issues here.

 

 

 

 

 

Apart from the display/control panel markings, these look to be identical to the Panasonic Air rad we installed six years ago. If so, I'll be interested to hear how they work for you as ours is fine in cooling mode but practically useless in heat mode as the ashp water temperature almost never reaches the delta at which the valve opens to allow water to circulate through it.

[eniacs]

That sounds right, both Panasonic and Daikin rebrand these units from Innova to sell in the UK. I didn't go for the valve option so I hope that isnt a problem!

 

Spec sheet shows them switching on the fan at a flow temp of 35deg. I was hoping to play with running a flow temp of 35 to 45 deg and see what works for the house, i dont think i'll be devastated if they only work at 45deg though.

 

How do you deal with condensation in cooling mode? I've looked at condensate pumps and drilling external drains etc but havent done anything yet.

[NSS]

34 minutes ago, eniacs said:

That sounds right, both Panasonic and Daikin rebrand these units from Innova to sell in the UK. I didn't go for the valve option so I hope that isnt a problem!

 

Spec sheet shows them switching on the fan at a flow temp of 35deg. I was hoping to play with running a flow temp of 35 to 45 deg and see what works for the house, i dont think i'll be devastated if they only work at 45deg though.

 

How do you deal with condensation in cooling mode? I've looked at condensate pumps and drilling external drains etc but havent done anything yet.

Okay, must have different internals to ours. We have a condensate drain that connects into a nearby waste pipe.

[eniacs]

No ours do have a drain connection but I haven't made connection to anything yet. Exterior walls i may do a drain to outside, interior walls could use a condensate pump to interior drain or to exterior of the building.

 

[Dave Jones]

8 hours ago, eniacs said:

That sounds right, both Panasonic and Daikin rebrand these units from Innova to sell in the UK. I didn't go for the valve option so I hope that isnt a problem!

 

Spec sheet shows them switching on the fan at a flow temp of 35deg. I was hoping to play with running a flow temp of 35 to 45 deg and see what works for the house, i dont think i'll be devastated if they only work at 45deg though.

 

How do you deal with condensation in cooling mode? I've looked at condensate pumps and drilling external drains etc but havent done anything yet.

 

35c could be an issue for me as this is the very top end ill be running the heat pump.

[eniacs]

15 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

35c could be an issue for me as this is the very top end ill be running the heat pump.

You must be aiming for COP of 5 lol. I'll be happy with 3