Fan Coil Units for use with a (cooling) ASHP

[Dave Jones]

1 minute ago, eniacs said:

You must be aiming for COP of 5 lol. I'll be happy with 3

 

for sure. need to get one and see if the valve can be tinkered with...

[JamesPa]

On 23/01/2023 at 13:28, eniacs said:

Ok i'm making progress. The innova units ive got a quote for 7 and are coming in about £500 each. Painful, but our designer normal rads were about £200 each 8 years ago, so probably 300 now. These new rads are electronically controlled and do cooling so maybe i can pursuade myself that they are an upgrade.

 

The supplier has offered valves to close off flow once they are at temp. Is this necesary? The controller will also stop the fan, so minimal heat will be coming out. The valve set is another £70 per rad.

Im interested in where you got that quote.  Ive looked at most of the FCUs online and these, or possibly the Mitsubishi Islim2 (which are also rebranded Italian units) look like the best but the price is putting me off!

 

re "The supplier has offered valves to close off flow once they are at temp. Is this necesary? The controller will also stop the fan, so minimal heat will be coming out. The valve set is another £70 per rad"

 

if it were me Id leave these out, it reduces system volume, adds cost and complexity and is, as you say, likely unnecessary.  But others may have a different view!

Edited April 26, 2023 by JamesPa

[eniacs]

HI James, Yes I've left out the valves. Temperature control will be fully via the controller turning on or off the fan. Water will flow in all rads at all times.

 

After the above i had to pay VAT in both italy and the UK (thanks brexit) so final cost is about £680 per rad. Way higher than i wanted, however I've got them now and looks like i cant claim back VAT after purchase either (thanks italy).

 

The company used in italy was www.idroclimashop.com

 

I had to use italian in communication with them (google translate) but they were very good with all replies.

[JamesPa]

42 minutes ago, eniacs said:

HI James, Yes I've left out the valves. Temperature control will be fully via the controller turning on or off the fan. Water will flow in all rads at all times.

 

After the above i had to pay VAT in both italy and the UK (thanks brexit) so final cost is about £680 per rad. Way higher than i wanted, however I've got them now and looks like i cant claim back VAT after purchase either (thanks italy).

 

The company used in italy was www.idroclimashop.com

 

I had to use italian in communication with them (google translate) but they were very good with all replies.

Thanks.  We have friends with a place in  italy, that might just help!

[eniacs]

I also do, but couldn't think of a way they could help. I did think that driving to Italy, picking them up then claiming back the VAT in the country as you leave (easier to do) then driving them back to the UK and claiming they are used (so not VATable) could be worthwhile. Ultimately I haven't really got time for that though.

 

[Dave Jones]

thinking more on the cooling setup.

 

Would a dedicated 'cooling' cylinder make sense ? In our setup we have 120m2 of ufh pipes to cool then 7 fancoils which adds up to a lot of piping. would it be more efficient for the ASHP to cool down a dedicated cylinder then spin this cooled water through the fancoils/ufh via the cylinder heat exchanger?

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Dave Jones

[eniacs]

If your system is designed to heat at low temp already with the heat pump, i cant see why you would need a specific cooling buffer tank? My piping is mostly 22-28mm so stores quite a bit of volume of water, im planning to try it and see how it performs and fit a buffer if required.

[Wil]

Are you trying to have a 4 pipe system with some heating and some cooling? If not, just use the same arrangement that you use for the heating?

 

I can’t see why it would be more efficient too cool down a central buffer first if you have the volumetric capacity to operate without one. Only benefit might be if you’re using different temps for the floor/ FCUs in order to avoid condensation?

[joth]

I buffer can be useful with FCU as a volumizer as usage patterns may differ to an UFH only design.

Our house is fairly typical with large open plan area downstairs and several smaller well sealed rooms upstairs. In heating season UFH throughout downstairs is used as one zone and needs no buffer. But in cooling season often only one bedroom needs the cooling during the night and without a buffer the ASHP short-cycles terribly. 

For another property I'm planning to specify UFH piped to bypass the buffer (T into  it as a LLH for hydronic separation) but the FCU flows to pass through the buffer so it increases system volume if only one zone is in use and thus avoid short cycling, but with minimal impact to ufh efficiency. I'd be interested if anyone has done something similar?

 

[Dave Jones]

2 hours ago, Wil said:

Are you trying to have a 4 pipe system with some heating and some cooling? If not, just use the same arrangement that you use for the heating?

 

I can’t see why it would be more efficient too cool down a central buffer first if you have the volumetric capacity to operate without one. Only benefit might be if you’re using different temps for the floor/ FCUs in order to avoid condensation?

 

cant. still want hot water but also cold air hence 2 separate tanks.

[Dave Jones]

1 hour ago, joth said:

I buffer can be useful with FCU as a volumizer as usage patterns may differ to an UFH only design.

Our house is fairly typical with large open plan area downstairs and several smaller well sealed rooms upstairs. In heating season UFH throughout downstairs is used as one zone and needs no buffer. But in cooling season often only one bedroom needs the cooling during the night and without a buffer the ASHP short-cycles terribly. 

For another property I'm planning to specify UFH piped to bypass the buffer (T into  it as a LLH for hydronic separation) but the FCU flows to pass through the buffer so it increases system volume if only one zone is in use and thus avoid short cycling, but with minimal impact to ufh efficiency. I'd be interested if anyone has done something similar?

 

 

when you say buffer do you mean a tank/cylinder ?

[Wil]

7 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

cant. still want hot water but also cold air hence 2 separate tanks.

But the ASHP can’t do DHW and cooling at the same time so will need to swap between the two modes anyway? Or do I vaguely remember that you have a TS and therefore your HW comes out of the ‘buffer’ you would be cooling for the FCUs/ UFH?

 

If that’s true then some sort of bypass of the TS with a 3P or 2P valve arrangement into a small LLH might be the way to keep DHW while enabling cooling as well?

[Dave Jones]

1 hour ago, Wil said:

But the ASHP can’t do DHW and cooling at the same time so will need to swap between the two modes anyway? Or do I vaguely remember that you have a TS and therefore your HW comes out of the ‘buffer’ you would be cooling for the FCUs/ UFH?

 

If that’s true then some sort of bypass of the TS with a 3P or 2P valve arrangement into a small LLH might be the way to keep DHW while enabling cooling as well?

 

yes i know, but as air con is needed it means the solar will be pumping. more than enough to drive the immersions.

[joth]

8 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

when you say buffer do you mean a tank/cylinder ?

Yes, I mean a thing that increases the system volume in that circuit. Buffer / tank / cylinder/ volumizer/ etc

[Luke1]

On 26/04/2023 at 08:41, JamesPa said:

Im interested in where you got that quote.  Ive looked at most of the FCUs online and these, or possibly the Mitsubishi Islim2 (which are also rebranded Italian units) look like the best but the price is putting me off!

 

re "The supplier has offered valves to close off flow once they are at temp. Is this necesary? The controller will also stop the fan, so minimal heat will be coming out. The valve set is another £70 per rad"

 

if it were me Id leave these out, it reduces system volume, adds cost and complexity and is, as you say, likely unnecessary.  But others may have a different view!

 

I've come across the I-Life2 Slim 170 on Saturn Sales @ £589 inc. VAT and shipping.

Seems they are a UK company and therefore no further customs charges to be paid...

https://www.saturnsales.co.uk/I-Life2-Slim-DLMV-170-ATS2-Fan-Assisted-Radiator.html

 

Has anyone found any ducted units in the UK? I have a loft space with suitable space in the eaves where a unit could be positioned and ducting installed.

I can't however find any suitable units on the UK market that include drip trays and don't require a bulk order.

 

 

[joth]

36 minutes ago, Luke1 said:

..

 

Has anyone found any ducted units in the UK? I have a loft space with suitable space in the eaves where a unit could be positioned and ducting installed.

I can't however find any suitable units on the UK market that include drip trays and don't require a bulk order.

 

 

 

Try contacting https://quartz.co.uk/products/topaz-vertical/  ?

No first hand experience, but heard them suggested for a project I'm involved in.

 

[eniacs]

On 01/06/2023 at 13:17, Luke1 said:

 

I've come across the I-Life2 Slim 170 on Saturn Sales @ £589 inc. VAT and shipping.

Seems they are a UK company and therefore no further customs charges to be paid...

https://www.saturnsales.co.uk/I-Life2-Slim-DLMV-170-ATS2-Fan-Assisted-Radiator.html

 

Has anyone found any ducted units in the UK? I have a loft space with suitable space in the eaves where a unit could be positioned and ducting installed.

I can't however find any suitable units on the UK market that include drip trays and don't require a bulk order.

 

 

Not a bad price at all. Also rated for cooling and heating. They look to be more rebranded Innova units, the front panel and control panel are the same.

[Luke1]

On 01/06/2023 at 13:54, joth said:

 

Try contacting https://quartz.co.uk/products/topaz-vertical/  ?

No first hand experience, but heard them suggested for a project I'm involved in.

 

Will drop these guys a message. Hopefully they are interested in small domestic customers unlike most FCU companies! 

[JoeBano]

Has anyone come across these radiator/fcu? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403556834346?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mvUzJ46sQYS&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=fvrkSYgnQ2C&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 

they look a bit nasty but the price isn’t bad at all saying myson ivector is 3 times the price. Condensate pipe for cooling 

[Ommm]

46 minutes ago, JoeBano said:

Has anyone come across these radiator/fcu? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403556834346
 

they look a bit nasty but the price isn’t bad at all saying myson ivector is 3 times the price. Condensate pipe for cooling 

Yes, they’re the basic Chinese type I posted about a year ago in this thread. See my comments about this specific listing  but I have other posts about the Chinese units.
 

The price is about double Alibaba pricing but of course you don’t have to import from China. If you’re going to buy a large number the sea freight and import fees will possibly be worthwhile to buy direct.

 

I have no direct experience since I never ordered any, but I saw that listing about a year ago and decided that particular one would be too small for my application. Also it’s not clear what kind of motor these have: you can get them with basic AC motors but the better ones have DC (electronically commutated or EC) motors - the Alibaba suppliers will do DC but often default to the cheaper AC motors which are louder and less efficient. (I should check whether the motors are available separately on Alibaba - they might well be)

 

One nice thing about this Chinese ecosystem is the controls are usually in a simple back box like a light switch on the top of the unit and are easily swappable, so you can find simple thermostats or wifi/RS485 modules, and change them to get what you want.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Ommm

[eniacs]

Has anyone tried one of these cheapy ones? I could do with one for underneath the counters in my kitchen

[Ommm]

Due to a change of plan I have a Daikin FWT05GATNMV1 wall-mounted fan coil unit available, plus a Daikin Merca wired controller.  Both are new and unused, with original packaging.  I've dry-tested them and everything works as it should. I think it takes a 3/4" BSP water connection.

 

 

(The cover is not screwed on in that picture, hence it's a little askew). See https://ibb.co/album/QDh90v for more photos.

 

£350 for the pair.

 

Location is Cambs/Beds border - I'm happy to deliver for free within Cambs or Beds or maybe a little further into surrounding counties.  Much further afield I can assist a courier that you organise - it originally came either Parcelforce or DHL, I can't remember now, and cost was about £20.  While the original polystyrene packaging was enough to get it to me and I have it all, with all the fins and plastic cover it is quite a fragile item so any courier collection would be at your risk.

[Wil]

Is that a water FCU? I'm Cambs/Northants/ Beds border so could well be interested. Just need to investigate it's specs

[Ommm]

Yes it's a water FCU.  Here's the specs from the above link.  (correction to the above, it's 1/2" BSP water connection)

If you're local you're welcome to come and I can demo it (dry) - send me a PM for more details.

[Wil]

Sorry, left this hanging will send you a PM.