ASHP Reviews

[Ralph]

Can anyone point me in the direction of some reviews?

 

My apologies if this has been done to death but I'm struggling to find any decent comparison reviews of ASHP manufacturers and possibly models. All I seem to be finding is reviews of ASHP in general or manufacturer reviews that seem to have been culled from the manufacturers website because every one seems to be super efficient, reliable and basically awesome.

 

Thanks.
 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I think one issue is that there really isn't very much to choose between any of the big-name inverter controlled ASHP manufacturers in terms of performance.  They will all probably perform pretty much exactly the same, so any differences are likely to be related to things like how easy their controls are to install/use.

 

There's a massive amount of badge-engineering, plus the use of a limited range of key components used by several manufacturers, which also makes comparisons challenging.  For example, Carrier (the company that invented the things originally) supply major parts, or sell badge-engineered versions of their products, to loads of different companies.  Our Glowworm ASHP is really a Carrier with a Glowworm badge on the front, and the same goes for Kingspan units, and others.  The small Toshiba unit I've just bought is really a Carrier too, I've just found out.  Likewise, Panasonic sell their inverter controlled compressors to loads of other manufacturers, including some no-name Chinese stuff.

 

Pretty much any of the big name brands, Mitsubishi, Daikin, LG, Carrier, Panasonic, Toshiba, Samsung, Hitachi etc, are likely to be pretty much of a muchness, I think.  Best bet might be to look to see if you can find any information about which brands have good support locally, as it seems that many suppliers stick to one or two brands, on the basis that they've built up a relationship with them.

[joe90]

As per @JSHarris above, the only thing I have heard about is the control units, ours (a carrier badged kingspan) have a complicated command unit and @ProDave seams to have a more controllable command unit, I may be wrong but will let them respond. Perhaps get one with a command init that does what you want it to do.

[ProDave]

My LG one came with the control unit, but it is a fiendishly complicated thing to program so I made some adaptations so the whole heating system is now controlled by a conventional 3 channel central heating programmer. Much easier for the average user to understand.  The LG controller is now relegated just to being a means to set and adjust parameters in the unit.

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Pretty much any of the big name brands, Mitsubishi, Daikin, LG, Carrier, Panasonic, Toshiba, Samsung, Hitachi etc, are likely to be pretty much of a muchness, I think.  Best bet might be to look to see if you can find any information about which brands have good support locally, as it seems that many suppliers stick to one or two brands, on the basis that they've built up a relationship with them.

Thanks for the response, that does make sense. Our local supplier, who seems well thought of, only supplies NIBE. Feedback on here seemed to be that it was on the more expensive end of the market. Although having seen one in action it is very quiet compared to a Mitsubishi I looked at. Meanwhile our architect recommends Daikin in almost all his builds.

 

Just now, joe90 said:

As per @JSHarris above, the only thing I have heard about is the control units, ours (a carrier badged kingspan) have a complicated command unit and @ProDave seams to have a more controllable command unit, I may be wrong but will let them respond. Perhaps get one with a command init that does what you want it to do.

I have to say the Daikin controller looked fairly good but I'm basing that on demos of the app. 

[PeterW]

Agree with @JSHarris - for example Ice Energy sold an IVT heat pump. This was a rebadged Mitsubishi unit. IVT are now part of Bosch, and resell different units...!

 

A lot depends on your need for heat / DHW as some are better at high temperatures than others. 

[jack]

We have a Panasonic Aquarea. Excellent performance, but we had a pump failure in less then three years. The approved engineer we had around to find and fix the fault said that this was extremely unusual, and couldn't see anything in the installation that could have caused this problem. Might just have been unlucky. 

 

Also, at least when we bought around 4 years ago, the controller that came with it was monstrously complicated, and there was no easy way of getting it to communicate with our home automation system. I believe you can buy a more advanced controller, but while the ASHP was relatively cheap, extras and spare parts seem eye-wateringly expensive for what they are.

[Ralph]

18 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Agree with @JSHarris - for example Ice Energy sold an IVT heat pump. This was a rebadged Mitsubishi unit. IVT are now part of Bosch, and resell different units...!

 

A lot depends on your need for heat / DHW as some are better at high temperatures than others. 

The plan is for reasonable insulation etc but not passive standards in 147 sqm. There are only two of us and we tend to be out working so DHW would not be too high. We are in the north of Scotland so it does get cold. Having said that the last few days have made me want air con rather than heating.

[Jeremy Harris]

The choice probably comes down to a couple of factors in the end:

 

1.  Are you happy with a bit of tinkering in order to get a bargain price?  If so, hunt around for one of the badge-engineered units that's being sold off cheaply - they all seem to be good value, based on the experience of people here.

 

2.  If you want a hands-off install, and don't want to tinker, then go with whatever big name  brand your local (reliable) installers normally supply and fit, as long as you're happy with what you've seen of their service and the way the unit runs and is controlled.

 

Pretty much any of the big name inverter controlled units will be quiet if run well within its maximum rating.  Equally, pretty much any of the big name inverter controlled units may be noisy when run close to maximum output.  For example, our Glowworm badged Carrier isn't supposed to be one of the quietest units around, but it happens to run very quietly indeed for us, as it never really gets asked to run anywhere near maximum capacity.  You can stand next to it when it's running during the day and not realise it's on without looking at the front to see if the fan is going around.   The same unit installed somewhere where it was being run hard much of the time might be considered a bit noisy.

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure that Nibe units use Copeland compressors.  Nothing wrong with that, Copeland are a well respected company that supply compressors for lots of brands, including Carrier.

[Ralph]

Just now, jack said:

Also, at least when we bought around 4 years ago, the controller that came with it was monstrously complicated, and there was no easy way of getting it to communicate with our home automation system. I believe you can buy a more advanced controller, but while the ASHP was relatively cheap, extras and spare parts seem eye-wateringly expensive for what they are.

Previously I never understood the requirement for things like wifi controls or being able to control your heating from your phone. However, I'm now wondering if it's more about an app that simplifies the controls rather than controlling it when your away from home.

[Ralph]

20 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

2.  If you want a hands-off install, and don't want to tinker, then go with whatever big name  brand your local (reliable) installers normally supply and fit, as long as you're happy with what you've seen of their service and the way the unit runs and is controlled.

Hands-off for sure. Some things I'm happy to get in and about but heating and electrics I'm best leaving alone. 

 

General takeaway then is the quality of the installer (and the price) and the after sales support is probably more important than the model.

[joe90]

I bought my 4Kw unit on Ebay fir £850 delivered and installed it myself. I think @ProDave has one with a good command unit?

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Hands-off for sure. Some things I'm happy to get in and about but heating and electrics I'm best leaving alone. 

 

General takeaway then is the quality of the installer (and the price) and the after sales support is probably more important than the model.

 

TBH I wouldn’t go with a domestic installer. This is an aircon unit at its core, find a local aircon engineer and get their opinion on what is best and what they are comfortable with. Most of the domestic installers are one trick ponies who have installation in mind and when it goes wrong are nowhere to be seen ... 

[H F]

We did three months of research prior to getting ASHP installers to come to our property. In the end, we invited six installers from boutique, small installers to large multinationals. There were so many "cowboys" despite us doing our best efforts to prescreen them. It was an incredibly tough decision to select an installer, and we finally selected a boutique installer that we fired on the first morning because they had no idea what they were doing and they sent one guy, yes, one guy, to install the system which included him getting a 150Kg ASHP out of the van by himself.

 

We then opted for a new installer, a British manufacturer of ASHP - the installation of out 18kW ASHP was outsourced to their preferred installers who were reliable and very professional. We have an overview video which we think is very useful.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Home Farm
Link edited

[Kesoolhe]

Great video. 

[H F]

11 hours ago, Kesoolhe said:

Great video. 

 

Thank you. Your feedback and comment is greatly appreciated.
 

You might be interested in the performance review too: 

 

 

I’m presently working on an autumn review to see how it fares as the temperatures start to drop.

 

Additional info here: https://myhomefarm.co.uk/air-source-heat-pump-efficiency-and-performance-review

Edited November 6, 2019 by Home Farm

[H F]

Please check out our honest verdict on the efficiency, effectiveness and sustainability of air source pumps in the UK - this is our winter review

 

 

 

 

 

More information and data is available here: https://myhomefarm.co.uk/verdict-on-air-source-heat-pumps-in-the-uk

[joth]

4 hours ago, Home Farm said:

Please check out our honest verdict on the efficiency, effectiveness and sustainability of air source pumps in the UK - this is our winter review

 

 

 

 

 

More information and data is available here: https://myhomefarm.co.uk/verdict-on-air-source-heat-pumps-in-the-uk

Thanks for sharing it.

Quick comment that you appear to be using kW and kWh interchangeably, which makes the data hard to follow. Also of interest would be knowing the CoP achieved on the sample days, and the floor area of the space heated and target temperature the thermostat set to, to get an idea of the parameters it's working within.

 

[Benjseb]

Yes be good to see that info- o can do the same with mine which is a compatible sized property to see how they are performing

[Jeremy Harris]

Not sure your conclusions about the apparent COP are valid TBH, and may be a bit misleading. 

 

COP for any particular ASHP is almost entirely determined by two main external factors; the temperature differential between the outside air temperature and the heat pump flow temperature, and the humidity of the outside air.  The flow temperature doesn't normally change at all between leaving the heating on all the time or having the heating come on and off, so any change in COP you're seeing has little or nothing to do with how you're choosing to run the heating.  The most probable cause for a slightly better COP, aside from mild weather, is possibly a change in the average humidity over this period.  Moist air contains more heat than dry air, as the heat exchanger in the heat pump can condense the moisture out and recover heat from the water vapour as it changes phase from gas to liquid.

 

Also, the point about switching a heat pump off during the day being less efficient is incorrect.  There are significant advantages to only running a grid powered heat pump overnight, and having it turned off during the day, as the grid tends to produce much lower CO₂ emissions during the night than it does during the day.   Running costs are also almost halved, as overnight electricity can be around half the price of day time electricity.

 

It doesn't matter where you buy your electricity from, as there is only one national grid supplying every home and business, so all the "green" suppliers do is effectively buy offsets so that someone else pays for the CO₂ produced by the energy they re-sell.  It doesn't make the grid any less carbon intensive to use a "green" supplier, other than possibly some of their revenue being directed towards building more renewable generation, perhaps (not sure that's true, really, either).  If you want to check the emissions from the grid at any time, then this site is useful: https://gridwatch.co.uk/co2-emissions .  You can check the current grid emissions from that site at any time to see how "green" the electricity is that you are consuming.  Finally, we run our heat pump from 00:30 to 06:30, during the off-peak period, and let the heat stored by the UFH in the floor heat the house for the remainder of the time.  This is close to the least harmful way to use electricity, in terms of the impact on emissions.

 

 

 

[H F]

Jeremy, thanks for the insights and great comments. I continue to learn about ASHPs, so your guidance is massively appreciated.

[H F]

8 hours ago, joth said:

Thanks for sharing it.

Quick comment that you appear to be using kW and kWh interchangeably, which makes the data hard to follow. Also of interest would be knowing the CoP achieved on the sample days, and the floor area of the space heated and target temperature the thermostat set to, to get an idea of the parameters it's working within.

 

I’ll go back to my post and review the kWh and kW usage.