Alan Ambrose

>>> Failure of electric UFH seems inevitable at some point To be fair, these 3 floors have been running for 7 years without a problem (well, up to this point) and I think the fast warmup of electric is more useful than water-based. Also, if your water-based UFH has a leak (my neighbour's did) then you have an equally tricky problem to solve. I personally wouldn't rule it out again. But If I did this again, I would be more careful (as above) and I would also pay more attention to the thickness of the insulation underneath, .

>>> I've just had a 10k NTC fail so make sure your sensors whatever they are can be replaced or install spares. Yeah, that's not the only mode of failure. I have one floor where the heating element has gone kaput a few weeks ago. I will investigate further but it almost certainly means taking up a resin floor, the UFH and the insulation underneath and relaying the lot from scratch. About the only difference between this and the two other electric UFH floors in this place is that a couple of years ago this floor overheated (not too badly but the floor was noticeably hot) when something in the utility cupboard pressed against the thermostat buttons. The floor had two spare thermistors laid under it for backup, but the existing thermistor was fine - it was the heating loop that is open-circuit. So, I would bear in mind possible failure of the heating wire. If and when I replace this lot, I have made a mental note to do the following: + try and ensure the controller is hardware fail safe. + prefer proportional over bang-bang control to reduce electrical stress. + check the provenance of the heating wire more thoroughly - it could be (duh) that not all heating wire is equal. + maybe lay two separate heating wires as well as multiple thermistors so there are ample backup circuits. I would be very cautious about having the control loop via automation software rather than a close loop in a dedicated thermostat / hardware controller. If I did choose to go down the automation route I would want some kind of local temperature trip as a backup.

A further update: + the API seems to work fairly reliably. + it's not so well designed or documented: for instance - although the app (and presumably the hub) knows the detailed 'heat-on' schedule by device over time for the couple of months on a 15 minute grid ... the api seems to only give you the number of total hours per day (as a rounded integer) per device for the last week. + however there a bunch of large json blobs you can retrieve, including 'GET_LIVE_DATA' which returns a 23K byte blob, 'GET_TEMPLOG' which returns a 5KB blob per device etc. + you can also send commands too. So this is, for instance, how the home automation systems integrate with the hub.

>>> It does rely on data collection, which everyone should be doing anyway. True - but if you are electric and/or gas heated and have smart meter(s) this could be, say, bright app daily data power usage download vs. local weather station average daily temperature or heating degree days from https://www.degreedays.net/.

>>> if the assessment point is invisible from the unit (and 250mm either side of the unit) then it gives a 10dB attenuation. A sheet of paper or a bin bag maybe 😎.

>>> got 3phase smart meter installed after 6 months of trying Well good luck. Goodness, we're drowning in treacle here. I had another go today with Eon call centre: Me: Is it possible to check on this 3-phase meter install again as it’s now two months since I first asked? If it’s not possible maybe you can let me know. Eon: Yes, it possible to install 3- phase meter. If there is anything else you will need, do not hesitate to contact me. Me: Just to be clear, over the last two months you guys have been unable to book an appointment to have one fitted. Could you please make one last attempt to book an appointment. Eon: I just need to ask a few questions, just so the engineers are fully prepared... Me: I already answered similar questions on 15th November, but see the same answers below... - I'm not sure whether it's more Kafka or Brecht or Beckett. Presumably the call centres get paid by the word. As they say - just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

OK basic access kinda works:

Also: https://github.com/MindrustUK/Heatmiser-for-home-assistant https://www.openhab.org/addons/bindings/neohub/ The latter is useful as it describes how you configure the hub with recent firmware (I think they update the firmware OTA automatically) for socket comms: (a) update the mobile app and set 'Legacy API' on in settings. (b) identify the hub ip using a scantool / your router's dhcp map and then check with nmap or similar that port 4242 is open. Then code something like the stackoverflow link above will work - otherwise you get 'socket closed'.

>>> I'm considering getting a NeoHub so I can use the API it exposes me too and it just surfaced on my stack again (could be only for 10 minutes). Let me note some finds on this subject then: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/57873516/trying-to-communicate-with-heatmiser-neohub-using-provided-api-json-over-tcp-an https://github.com/RJ/heatmiser-neohub.py https://faq.heatmiser.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001844820-How-do-I-request-the-API-Documents- https://pub.dev/documentation/neohub/latest/ https://gitlab.com/afshar-oss/neohub-dart/-/blob/master/doc/Neohub_Api_For_Systems_Developers.pdf I'll post here if I find any time to write some code...

@jayc89 >>> I'm considering getting a NeoHub so I can use the API it exposes Can I ask - did you do that in the end?

I just noticed that there's a good way to measure actual overall U factor / energy/degree day described here: https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/blogs/entry/965-update-on-energy-use-based-on-4-years-of-actuals/?tab=comments#comment-6148 See TerryE's post where he uses a regression of daily energy used vs. external temperature: Returning to the data, the strongest trend is shown by the external temp vs daily total power use scatter plot, which fits to P = 60 - 2.45T, that is each drop of 1 °C in average daily outside temperature requires an extra 2.45 kWh heating. I also checked this against my pre-build design calcs which predicted 1.92 kWh, i.e. the as-built house performs about 25-30% worse than as-designed.

Well I think this is a very good discussion as a bunch of us are likely to face similar hurdles. While I generally like to be squeaky clean, I think in this case the LPA/MCS/BSI systems are a bit stacked against you, so a bit of street smarts are required. How about these tactics: (1) Install + Inform the neighbours of your plans and tell them you'll taking great pains to observe the noise rules. + Install as planned. Have a backup plan for extra attenuation / screening if needed/desired. + Make some measurements yourself before/after installation along the MCS/BSI lines. I like the time graphs for their sciency look and feel, and that suggests a logging noise meter/app. + Tell the LPA the work is done as specified. If they ask you for the calcs/data, submit them. + Check with the neighbours after installation to make sure they're happy. (They're the only ones really who have the ability to spark up the LPA). That should be it. However, if, despite your careful handling of the neighbours they raise a complaint to the LPA: (2) Argue and remediate if necessary. + Submit and/or point the LPA to your calcs/data. + The neighbours/LPA will either have to put a consultant to work through your calcs/data or employ one of their own to make their own measurements. Bearing in mind the most LPA's are stretched right now and their general remit is to encourage energy efficiency (e.g. heat pumps) either of these IMO is very unlikely. + If the neighbours / LPA get the bit between their teeth. Then: (a) ask them to identify the errors in your calcs / methodology. (b) propose your back plan for attentuation. (c) if and only if that is accepted, implement your backup plan. That should be it, but if there are still objections: (3) Circle the waggons. + make updated measurements yourself and submit your updated data/calcs. + If either of the neighbours / LPA still have the bit between their teeth, then I suggest they'll need to prove non-compliance (and you've already demonstrated that you've done everything in your power to comply). + if they can prove non-compliance and you can't think of any other attenuation mechanisms, go to appeal. + plead (a) you have taken every possible step to comply, and (b) heat pumps are government recommended technology. + if you lose, take it to the papers and embarrass the LPA. It's BS that you even have to think this through, of course. I would be willing to bet that you'll easily stop at (1) above. In my view, LPAs are in an Alice in Wonderland state atm. How does that sound?

>>> Pretty much everything else eventually heats the house fabric. Yeah, agree. Thanks for the very useful analysis and stats. 11.4 MWh p.a. does sound high. What's the floor area? Since you're obviously a fellow technologist - maybe time for a circuit monitoring set-up?

>>> The rating level of noise emitted from the air source heat pump (ASHP) system hereby approved shall not exceed 10dB below the existing background noise level as measured or calculated at 1 metre from the façade of the nearest noise sensitive property. The measurement and assessment shall be made according to BS 4142:2014+A1:2019 'Methods for rating and assessing industrial and commercial sound' at the nearest and / or most affected noise sensitive premises, with the ASHP system operating at maximum capacity and be inclusive of any penalty for tonal, impulsive or other distinctive acoustic characteristics. I'm not so sure it wouldn't pass the regs they have cited. It should be easy for an acoustics person to figure out from: + the actual noise of the unit (which should be in the manufacturer's spec).. + the actual level of background noise. + the distance to the neighbour's place. + any intermediate barriers. Or you can just try putting a fake noise source with the right noise level in the right place (maybe a phone with a recording with or without a USB speaker) and hotfooting it over to the neighbour's place with (in the first instance) a phone app or a cheap dB meter. Then measure the noise level with and without the noise source on. Voila, a first cut estimate. That'll tell you whether you're easily within / way over / or on the borderline. While you're at it you can even ask the neighbours to do a mark one earhole test. If they're not happy, you can chat about noise screening measures. Some more facts would be useful e.g. the answers to the points above.

Nice, useful when your offspring have skills . Maybe you could ask him what the standard means in terms of limit in dB over background?

A bit nonsense that the BSI standard is so expensive, but funnily enough it's available on the Warrington district's site for free: https://www.warrington.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2020-08/cf54_bs_4142_2014_a1_2019.pdf All that mumbo jumbo (somebody has really gone to town) means essentially measure the background noise level and then with the heat pump running. Obviously the heat pump can't add too much, otherwise it's 'officially annoying'. Essentially you're just measuring how much the sound level increases when you turn your heat pump on. Not sure you really need some consultants for that - it would be good if you can just use a cheap sound meter or even a phone app. Maybe if you can provide a graph like in the BSI doc then you'll be good.

If you google the code you gave above you might (after a couple of jumps) find the same number as me for that product: that is 7.35 kW. Max for a UK plug is about 3kW, and actually 3kW often doesn't work too well if either the plug or socket isn't high very quality - you can get arcing and heat. In principle you could do it and expect the 13A fuse in the plug to blow if you used more than one ring/zone. But I wouldn't. I'm sure a qualified electrician will be along in a jiffy, but the 'right way' of doing it would be a dedicated circuit to the consumer unit on say 20A or 32A wiring / breaker and out to a proper cooker-rated switched spur with the hob directly wired in. Or just buy yourself a single/double zone hob less than 3kW.

Well this is all very curious given that, in my experience, the BH forums are generally very helpful and people here spend a great deal of time and energy making their knowledge available in a very generous way. The question, as stated, is obviously winding a few people up for reasons I can't quite figure out. Maybe the subject of planning itself just puts everyone in a bad mood... I won't inflame further, but will post any info I find on the subject (if I find any) for other people to find later. That could be me when I've totally forgotten about it . Thanks for everyone's responses though.

I can't see anything wrong with your calcs. I did something similar to this calc a few months ago for an existing property i.e. I have some reasonable energy usage stats. I came to these tentative conclusions (some or all of which might be nonsense) : + until Ofgem make the feed-in a proper % of the standard rate, selling the surplus is not worth the bother. + a HW diverter is a fairly simple way of using a lot of the extra generation. + you can always add the battery later if the cost/benefit is good. + even if you have good projected usage and generation stats, the sizing calcs are a bit iffy - there are just too many assumptions. The key assumption, of course, is electricity prices going forward - hopefully things will normalise a bit once the Ukraine war is concluded. But that implies the payback will be longer + ideally you could add single panels at a time to your model - until the incremental payback of the extra panel was longer than you could be bothered with. In my case (12 panels/6.5kWp is the max that will fit on this roof) I came up with these calcs: + but overall I decided that the panels themselves are fairly cheap and you might just as well fill the roof while you're about it (even if you don't use/install an inverter/battery to cope with max. panel output). That is, the fixed cost of installation is high enough that you only want to do it (that is, the bit on the roof) once (except that you might start with a smaller inverter / battery etc. if funds are tight). That might mean asking for something a bit more custom than the usual packages that get sold. You can probably change the electrics inside without much bother/cost later if needed. At least I can - since there's an easy / substantial / flexible attic space to use and easy to access. As I said - these conclusions might be nonsense , and they might be too specific to my particular situation for anyone else to draw any conclusions from.

>>> So you haven’t even submitted your application yet? The thread is about ‘how do I find out what my local planning situation is like’ rather than a particular application - a subject presumably of interest to BH members. @DevilDamo - Am I right in thinking you’re an ex-LA planner and/or planning consultant? If so, can you give us some pointers on how we figure the local environment as clearly not all LAs are the same?

>>> Day night shift of 1-2 kWh hotel loads is the most that should ever be cost effective Possible to explain a bit more?

I’m surprised that your architect is making a fuss about this - especially for a clad house, which makes the solution v. easy as you’ve shown. Just make the main door more prominent and the dog door more blended in. For the dog door one or more of: clad it / match window profile / diminished door furniture etc. Highlight the main door with one or two of: lights either side / pots either side / doorbell / knocker / more prominent features or finishes / external door mat / highlight the paving and/or planting. Essentially you’re just trying, for visitors, to make one look more likely to be the main door than the other. You can call this ‘affordance’ or ‘design cue’ and then you can (a) charge yourself twice as much and (b) encourage your architect to get a grip. If you want to be cute, you can even impose an outline of a dog or something else doggy somewhere on/near the dog door. I would also find some more suitable I.e. paw and claw resistant surface materials for the dog room so it doesn’t deteriorate so fast. Plastic / metal sheathing / coir maybe. I don’t have a dog, so dog resistant materials are not something I’ve thought much about. Alan

>>> Isn’t east Suffolk one of the better ones? Surely the higher the % within 8 weeks the better? As I said - I was just showing the bottom 10% of the table - there are 294 local authorities out of 329 that do better than East Suffolk. Follow the link above and you can see the whole shooting match. >>> It looks like they determine 74% within 8 weeks. Yeah it might look like that, and you might hope that the other 26% were getting dealt with in, say, 6 weeks. But that's not the case. Does anybody know if there are some more granular stats around? For instance, I see https://www.planningportal.co.uk/ is something 'run by TerraQuest Solutions Limited and Department for Levelling Up'. Presumably they should have some numbers? Alan

Just to add extra annoyance ... E.On Next (such a stupid name) email or text me once a week with the 'smart meter come-on': We know you’re busy, but we haven’t heard from you yet about fitting a smart meter for you. When I fall for it, they ask me 8 questions, think for 10 seconds and say 'nope'. As a systems guy I hate the bugs in all these systems, so f.....g careless. I have have found bugs as in 'system not functional enough to be able to get it to do something simple' in HMRC tax, Taxcalc, this, and Royal Mail on-line postage purchase over the last couple of days. And I'm pretty good at working around stupid bugs in on-line systems. There's not even an easy way to submit bug reports for any of them. Alan

>>> But a house is much slower time constants, hours not milliseconds, so to do the same with the heating system in a house would take days. More akin to tuning the heating system on a furnace to get to desired temperature as quick as possible without overshooting. OK I'll give it a go at some time and see whether I can figure any results. I have Heatmiser to measure the temperatures / Bright to measure the total energy input / and maybe I can pick up some solar and wind data from somewhere. Alan