Peter M

Also is that even the correct insulation for outside as some types of lagging can degrade very quickly in strong sunlight which I discovered the hard way.

To be fair to the electrician that supposedly finished off the lagging it can be a bit fiddly to get it right and look good, insulation works best when it's tightly fitted without any gaps for water to seep in and possibly freeze in the middle of winter, cutting around drain-cocks and valves once again ain't easy but not impossible by a skilled installer, from what I've seen the black tape is doing quite a lot of the heavy lifting on this 'install'

That type of sloppy pipework would really bug me, I can be very fussy with pipe runs particularly runs that are outside and visible, even behind units such as ASHP equipment, one installer that I was considering had wanted to run the pipework vertically up behind the ASHP and then drilled through the cavity walls of the garage at high level to run inside the eaves of the attic truss roof rather than kept at low level and 90% out of sight and continued to be run horizontally 250mm above the garage floor and behind what will be my racking and work benches, another didn't even want to give me a schematic or drawing of the install showing the pipe and electrical cable runs. If I'm right every metre of extra pipe run will have an effect of affecting the performance of the ASHP, but I stand to be corrected on this if I'm wrong.

Be very careful and if possible very specific in your needs and requirements with regard to the products that any window supplier/builder advocates on using or suggests using around the windows and doors to maintain an air tight and/or watertight seal, we took the no real notice as to what product was going to be used and relied on the company to specify the correct product and what was used turned out to be totally incorrect and of no use to do what was the intention of providing an airtight seal, what was used was a Correx rubberised self adhesive sealing layer on a roll but it turned out that a rubberised product was a big no no from the plasterer who informed us it should have been a 'non woven' product that would allow plaster to actually adhere to the product where the rubberised one will stick to but will not last.

I see that I was too slow but just incase anyone else needs a referral code you can use mine 😉 Well done to prodave for his prompt response. 👍🏻 https://share.octopus.energy/sunny-foal-774

Hi Dani and Craig, our situation regarding the botched window supply and installation has not yet been resolved, more than a year has been lost in our build and we have engaged a solicitor to pursue all issues of this for us, we've just recently had a complete survey done, engaged by our solicitors, by an independent fenestration expert and are now awaiting their report, sadly these kind of supply and install problems are not easily resolved and it takes time but we're determined to not allow our particular supply and install company to get away with the total mess that they have created.

Whatever you do don't use the Obex product which is a rubberised product as our plasterer said that he can't put plaster onto it either as a dot and dab or wet plaster as it won't adhere very well. Our window installer used the Obex type which we are now insisting that is removed and replaced with illbruck me508 with a full adhesive backing.

In this instance it's the maximum height as the opening is also a fire escape a fact which is referenced earlier in this thread so you may not have seen it.

I can only quote you what our building inspector has detailed, see below:- "I would suggest that from the blue line on the photo attached (top of the 120mm upstand) the glazed guarding comes 1100mm from this level. The guarding needs to be from finished floor level, but in this instance I would suggest that the upstand is the floor level and not the actual room level, because if the guarding was taken from the bedroom floor level it would be under the required height once stepping onto the upstand/step. " I hope this makes sense to you.

Sorry I should have stated that in our particular case the opening was a fire escape, my mistake.

Check out the reply to this thread that I have just posted today re Juliet's and the pit falls that can catch you out, it can be a minefield out there for the unwary.

Be very careful of who and what is installed as our Juliet has been installed above the maximum height of 1100mm, the measurements that should have been considered were not taken into account, see attached picture, and as the sub-contracted company who our window company engaged to do the Juliet's did not perform a full survey just a cursory visit before the windows were even installed so they screwed up big time, they insist it is compliant but our building control guy says otherwise, there are many factors that can determine where the height is measured from as shown in the picture, but with us it's from the top of the block-work immediately in front of the opening, not the frame, not the gasket both of which has been suggested, either way it's too high even though it may be only 60mm. Juliet_Balcony_Glass_&_Window_26_(compressed).pdf

Our building inspector is insisting on 1100 from finish floor level or if there is a step in front of the opening, as with ours, the 1100 should be taken from the top of the step including any finishes.

Don't believe everything that you are told regarding foam filled aluminium frames, our Comar 9pi and 5pi advanced framing supposedly had foam in the inner core but when I noticed the absence of foam from within one of the trickle vent slots and examined it for myself I was brushed off with the excuse that maybe "the foam had fallen out during transportation" but still nothing was done to rectify the problem, a possibility yes, but now I am doubting whether any or some of the other frame sections have missing insulation foam. Not a good feeling to have I can tell you especially when the U-values of the windows and doors are so critical.

The external finishes are not all in place yet, which will be just a strip of HardiPlank cladding to the inside of the opening, some have been done and some haven't but the water ingress is happening on finished and unfinished window openings, but what I did do was to go around all the openings that I could easily reach from the ground without erecting a tower, which will be erected later, and sealed with low modulus silicone sealant on top of the expanded foam that the window company had pumped in between the epdm barrier and the brick or block structural opening. The black sheet that you can see in the picture on the inside sill is the epdm the water sitting on top of is the epdm which in turn is stuck to and around the frame to 'seal' the whole window unit from any outside moisture and to improve the airtightness and then stuck by way of a further adhesive strip on the reverse side, 4 inches wide, if the water is forming on top of the epdm it can only be coming from within the frame units that have found their way into the bottom casement section and not drained out through the face drainage slots, water by it's very nature will always find the path of least resistance to drain down unless there is a watertight seal preventing such action. There is no foam between the framing and the epdm seal just the adhesive, approx 2 inches wide sticking the epdm to the frame. I'm loathed to carry on with the finishing detail around the windows until I am 100% sure that the water coming in is sorted and that the window does not have to be removed which will cause all sorts of damage in doing so.

Hi Ian, the frames are anthracite grey so what you can see in white is the protective film, the black cylindrical object is the hinge on this particular window as it is a tilt inwards arrangement. Only have ever seen this a day or so after it rains, not immediately, or when I have hosed & washed the windows down after I had been doing some dusty work on the cementboard cladding. The house is dry no wet trades in progress and the floor has dried out, laid in June 2021, no evidence of condensation/water on any internal surface only from BELOW some of the frames.

As this thread is entitled "Condensation and 3G Windows" and not being fully clear by what is meant as "3G" in the title I thought that I would chance my arm and post this reply here and add a picture of what we are experiencing with condensation, or at least that is what the window company is saying is the core contributor to the 'condensation' Our build is nowhere near completed as far as wet trades are concerned as we have not started the plastering yet, the floor has been poured but is now dry and the house has no form of heating yet so the temp outside is pretty much the same as inside and is pretty much sealed apart from the odd draught around the opening as they have not yet been fully sealed. We are really concerned that this is a much bigger issue than condensation being caused by the head or heads of the screws that is fixing the sill to the bottom frame, window company explanation not mine, the pooling of water is being experienced on about four windows at present, was about eight but it seems to alter depending the direction of the rain/wind, if you have any thoughts or ideas I'd be pleased to hear from you. All windows are double glazed in core insulated aluminium from a largish supposed expert company.

If you want to make yourself feel a little bit better and to avoid some of the traps that we fell into read my post on the thread 'Window order checking / comparing suppliers' it's a continuing saga and is nowhere near the end of the debacle.

We did consider an MVHR but the cost for us was prohibitive plus some of the reviews about them turned us right off them.

To be honest I can't, didn't want trickle vents bloody horrible things, but they are a requirement in our building regs doc, we're not building a passive house but where we can improve the overall airtightness and control moisture around the openings EPDM was recommended as being a good option and as I understand it when the airtightness test is performed all the trickle vents are taped up.

Following on to my previous 'rant' / post ... We are in the process of pulling together every bit of information that has been sent to us from the company right from initial consultation to where we are today and the lack of understanding of our concerns there has been from the fabricator/installer/company who seem more concerned as to when they will receive the outstanding 10% than tackle the balls-up that they have created, yes we hold ourselves to blame for some issues like not fully understanding as to how a particular frame/section may deviate from what we initially asked for but I maintain that any company worth it's salt will explain and clarify, in writing, a requested or not requested change. For instance one of our larger 1st floor doors was to be made with a flying mullion in the centre with the two opening casements tilt & turn, no problem we were told, fresh quotation was sent out, CAD drawing supplied showing just what we requested, we checked the details and agreed that it was exactly what we wanted and signed it off, roll on more than a few weeks to just two weeks prior to beginning of install when we received an e-mail out of the blue saying "just to confirm that the two doors will not be able to fabricated in that style" so they suggested one door would be tilt and turn and the other that the mullion would be connected to would be a turn only, OK we said after we queried the email and change proposed not exactly what we wanted but hey ho it seems as if you can't get everything you would like nowadays even when you had been told it was possible, roll forward to day of installation of said doors and the gearing immediately failed which the fitter spent the best part of TWO HOURS wrestling with to try and make it work, but he did, then we discover that the locking handle attached to the slave door with the flying mullion affixed just spins around and does not perform any function apart from being there to look good, which it didn't, wrong handle style for a start & loose, the only way to latch and un-latch the slave door was to fiddle around with two very small and difficult metal tabs, one top and one bottom, which when you have arthritis is NOT easy at the best of times especially when you expected to have TWO handles to open, close and lock both doors!! To add insult to injury as they say regarding this pair of doors I also noticed that the mitre joint in one of the corners was not flush in fact it looked as if it had slipped in the jig when being screwed together or crimped or whatever it is they do to hold the individual frame sections together so was not flush or in-line with it's pairing mitre, not a big issue I hear you say in the big scheme of things but when you have just one bad joint out of all the joints that exists on our windows it beggars belief as to why they couldn't do the same to this one!! Now I move on to the Juliet Glass Balcony that is fixed across the aforementioned pair of doors, the room concerned requires a fire escape, an egress I think they call it, this Juliet was to be supplied along with another smaller Juliet by a third party company organised by the window company, which specialises in such things, the rep came out to our build to survey both windows where the two Juliet's need to be fitted but as the windows were not at that stage installed they were unable to do their survey, check or measure anything so we were told they would return to perform said survey sometime after the windows were installed but not hopefully before I had a chance of finishing off the return cladding around the two windows, we invited the chap in to have a look around and acquaint himself of the inner and outer openings where the windows would be fitted but he declined saying all that will be taken care of when the 'full survey is done' or words to that effect, you can imagine my surprise and horror to be honest when one frosty morning I woke and looked out of my window, our current house is adjacent to the new build, to see a tower erected by the Juliet balcony company and screwing the 'Skyforce Juliet glass fixings to the window frame and lifting the glass in place, this piece of glass is huge approx 2.6m wide by 1.10m tall but because the doors have drip strips running across the front at the bottom of the doors they couldn't lower the glass to just above the sill so decided to raise it up till it cleared said drip bars, you wouldn't think that this would be a problem except for the fact that as this opening was a 'Fire Escape' the maximum height of an opening could not be greater than 1.0m from the inside floor or in our case the ledge just inside the opening, which makes the top of the Juliet glass 1.240m way above what is allowed or will be signed off by building control, I managed to stop the install although it was too late for this particular one but the window company insist it is "compliant" with current building regs, which in my opinion it is NOT but can I get them to agree NO I cannot. To further add to this nightmare I believe the overall frame size had been miss-measured and when I queried the size I was told that the frame had to be returned to the factory to have side packers screwed to it to affix said Skyforce Juliet glass fixings to, and guess what when said fixing were screwed to said frame they were NOT even screed to the side packers..... strange eh!! Saga to be continued, I need to go and have a drink .....?

I've just found this thread and although it is quite old (2017) I feel that our experiences may help or enlighten the pit falls that one can very easily fall into. Our chosen company, who shall remain nameless for the time being were outstanding in the sales, quotation, survey and installation aspects of the process, or so we thought. We took the best part of three years maybe more speaking with various suppliers of all types of windows and door systems so when we found a company that promised to 'hold our hand' through the whole process we were relieved as our chosen product, aluminium, was a fast emerging product for domestic applications and situations. That all being said and after agreeing on the type, design and reviewing 7, yes 7 versions of what we decided upon we were never ever was given the opportunity or chance to see, physically, what was being produced until they were delivered to site, and even then as they were in component form and had to be assembled prior to being fitted into the prepared openings it wasn't evident what they would look like, big mistake!! The chosen profile was/is very thick, despite us requesting a slim as possible frame, windows were delivered to site and fitted in a faulty condition such as gearing for the tilt and turn not operating as it should, trickle vents cut into the wrong position of the head of the frame, drip bars drilled and fixed in a different position than is detailed by the official technical fabrication manual from the profile producer, we were also not advised that there would be anything up to eight weep vents with plastic covers over them for some frames although concealed internal draining was an option, these drip/weep vent covers are not even colour coded so stand out horribly. To aid the airtightness of the build we elected to have both compriband and EPDM around all the frames and stuck back to the inner openings but as the adhesive is NOT across the whole membrane sheet it only fixes back to the inner blockwork and not the cavity closure which our plasterer says compromises the dot and dab plasterboarding inside the openings, this EPDM has also highlighted another potential issue in so far as any water entering through the frames is directed inside the building and sits on top of the membrane which will of course cause damp issues. This has become quite a long post and I need to get on with what I have to do today, but I will be adding more a bit later regarding the way in which this company has reacted to our concerns and having the nerve to highlight such issues and concerns once raised, stand by to stand by......

Hi Craig, Thank you for your reply and offer to look at our concerns of this issue, I'll write up a shortened bullet point list with the relevant drawings of what we expected based on the information supplied by the window company which at this point has fallen far short of our expectations and send via a PM.

From what was explained to me by the plasterer was, as the edpm was affixed around our windows and doors to further enhance the moisture and air tightness of the opening it needed to be bonded to the cavity closure and the lintel above by way of the adhesive fixing strip on the reverse side of the edpm layer and where/if it was breached or punctured during installation should also be patched/sealed to retain its effectiveness as shown and described by the manufacturer on its website.

We have written to the company with a full and concise snagging list and because of the scope of the snags the owner felt that he should come out to do a full inspection, some of the 'faults' could be rectified on site but there are others that we feel fall under the miss selling act or goods not as described or errors made during the manufacture of the windows. The response we received back ten days later together with some solutions for rectifying some of the issues also suggested that we were at fault for expecting windows to look like what we were shown at their offices/showroom despite our requests on numerous occasions to see "an actual product" or sample of what we should expect. To make matters worse we have also just today discovered that the implementation of the edpm seal around the windows and doors is the wrong type as the plasterer says that it should be fully bonded to the cavity closure as well as the inner blockwork skin, currently at least 90mm of the edpm is loose and flapping between the frame and inner blockwork which would mean the dot and dab is not adhered to a firm surface, it may be that I'm worrying unnecessarily about this but....... If the plasterer is right it may be that all the windows need to be taken out to re do the edpm if nothing else unless there is a way to retro fit some form of bonding agent.