ToughButterCup

This thread has its roots in an earlier one and in many of the threads on related subjects on BH A bit of context: I really dont 'get' hot water supply. It seems so incredibly complex. Why cant it be simple? The end in mind is simple .... provide some hot water for hand washing. I want instant hot water for 10 seconds: the time it takes to wash, rinse and repeat. 'Solutions' (that oft mis-applied word) to the issue of delivering a few handfuls of warm water depend on all sorts of increasing levels of sophistication. It reminds me of that aphorism : Little Bugs have Smaller Bugs upon their backs to bite 'em and so on ad infinitum. A traditional vented hot water supply system has all sorts of quirks that need sorting out - Aha! there's a fix for that use a non-vented system. Currently it takes an age for our hotwater to reach the sink - Aha! There's a fix for that recirculate the hot water . Oh, but that's wasteful of electricity isn't it - Aha! there's a fix for that lag the pipes, and anyway it doesn't cost much Hold on a minute, the water tank is heating the upstairs too much - Aha! there's a fix for that Lag the tank more (or worse) I dont pretend to know how often or how much water is expended on hand washing (3 sinks in our case). But the psychology of hand washing is wash-and-go: not wait-get-bored-rinse-only-and-go. Who is going to wait more than 10 seconds to get this minor job done? And in that context - tiny volumes of water, daily use for a few seconds, doesnt it make sense to heat locally? I know people have strong views about electricity and water - I do hope we can maintain the focus on local water instant water heating in this thread.......

I wish it were - for me. Context is important, and because I dont want to hijack this thread , I'll start another (that references this thread)

Thanks. You mention clients. Which sector do you operate in?

Thanks, thats a generous offer. Before you spend too much time on that task, I wonder whether you could tell me about your involvement with the instant water heater sector please?

Some Sparks do, some sparks don't, Some Sparks need a lot of lovin' and some Sparks don't, Well, I know I've got the fever but I don't know why Some Sparks say they will, and some Sparks lie .... [...] (after Racey - no apologies needed)

The wealth of advertising claims and shared ignorance on Tinternet on this issue is starting to annoy me. Everyone seems to be pushing one agenda or another - and precious few (none, in fact that I have found) look at the range of contexts in which instant water heaters make provable financial and (to a lesser extent) ecological sense. Would you be kind enough to point me to anything - reliably evidenced - on the Internet which supports your assertion, please? I ask because I started out on our build with a determination to do just as you suggest. And every time I discuss it with mates or plumbers, they all pour metaphorical cold water on the idea. And when I push them, none has any experience of fitting instant water heaters. None. And if I have learned one thing on this build - and learned it the very hard way - plumbers and many other trades folk don't like doing things just a little bit differently. Anything which involves just a bit of thought or seems outside the normal run of things seems to cause a switch to flip from On to Off (With sincerely insincere apologies to @Onoff ?)

Naaah mate, it's the other way round ....? Welcome. Ian

Notwithstanding the replies above: screws are slow(er) to insert, stronger at pulling together, need to be bigger in some cases, more expensive than nails, I think there is a strong case to be made for using screws for appropriate parts of the build. It's not often that one hears - 20 years away? I was talking to a good mate who asked me whether I had thought about taking the screws I have used ... out. An old-fashioned look later, he explained to me that, before use, he had dipped the screws used on his self-build in wax of some sort. And that, 20 years later, he was now grateful he had done so. So, John what did ya dip them in then old fella? Dunno, forgotten. So I punched him - forfeit eventually agreed - one whole Aldi fruit cake. Or you could just assume that someone else is going to have to take the screws out. PS, it took @Cpd half a day to tidy his workshop up to that level of extreme tidiness. ?

Hook, Cat5 and sinker @pocster, hook Cat5 and sinker mate.

Thats really very interesting indeed. Would you be kind enough to get me started on how to do a calculation like that for myself? Just a hyperlink or reference will do fine.

@vivienz, can I suggest that - no matter which vent you eventually use - you will eventually ignore it. Part of the furniture, not worthy of note. At the moment it's all new, stark, the focus of a good deal of effort and not a little money. That little nook is empty. Draw the piddler's eye by putting something fun in there. For example (Image stolen fair and square without permission from here ) Camouflage really does work. I know - I need it at Salamander Cottage. Big time.

That was mean @Temp, really mean . Poor old @Onoff All those gratuitous gender signals ...It wont be long before before his insulation melts now will it?

Ahhhh, yes, I can see how that would work ... Pro Clima Solitex Fronta Quattro, then battens then Siberian Larch cladding : it should cover the lead flashing almost completely (all bar 100mm of the lead). Thinking about it, me telling the roofing membrane (Evalon V) installer that the lead flashing would be almost fully covered ...... was maybe ermmm, unwise. .

Welcome. Here's an idea, pop up the M6, J33 and show me how to do it, please. Ta! Ian

I can hardly believe that I'm writing this post in such a matter of fact mood. I should be furious. But I'm not. This job needs doing fairly pronto and as usual, I have never done anything like it before. So, please give these images a coat of looking at. Then tell me what you think. There was I, wondering why a bit of water was trickling through my flat roof - didn't pay it much heed to it for a while until this recent set of soaking wet, dense, rain-filled Easterly winds. Some of you will know, thats my favourite wind direction here ( Got a strong stomach? Read this). I strongly suspected that it was my poor rendering skills that allowed water to trickle through into the Durisol, and down into the house. So I toddled up on the flat roof, sucked my teeth, prayed that @nod wouldn't drop by - my workmanship's not that brilliant. Filled in the odd crater here and there. Lots more to fettle, forgot about it. Next morning, the hall floor looked like we'd had visit from an incontinent Hefalump. Bugger. (Not quite a @Russell griffiths 'bugger', but not far off it.) Well now, lets have another little look. Hmm, what about the flashing? Heres a piccy the flashing on bottom of the the east facing wall. Part of the capping strip (blue batten) has been removed. (Now, you have to realise, that I know nothing - nothing about flashings, or how to install them. Or best practice, or anything like that.) I bloody well do now. Never mind who or how it got into that state (but ' Aaahm an it honey, aaaahm an it ') Naughty man. When I see him, I'm going to wee in his fuel tank. My current understanding of the ways of the Flasher is that he shouldn't have installed it like he did. Because when the water trickles down the superbly efficient parge coat ?, its going to whizz straight past the lead and .... end up on my hall floor. With me so far? (This is nowhere near as long as a @Nickfromwales post) Several YooChube videos, and trips to the BM later ... zooming in a bit .... and then some sealant (CT1) I left half of the wall un-clad. Because its going to widdle down tonight and if I've got the 'fix' wrong, I dont want to have to undo all of my handiwork. Buckets are already in the correct place for tonight's drips. If the new flashing works, do I back-fill the rest of the groove with mortar (over the CT1)? I'd be so grateful for any advice. Thanks. Ian

I find your brief difficult to read: it's hard to get a feel the 'whole' brief. The level of detail is a little daunting. A key part of understanding a text comes from the way the ideas (not merely the sentences) link with one another. Understanding is also helped by readablity. In terms of readability, the spreadsheet format - while useful for things like matching performance against criteria - doesn't help the general reader. Maybe a simple narrative text would help people like me?

Three years ago, I bought mine on Nick's recommendation. As described by Nick above, it has been very valuable.I bought the receiver that goes with it, and a staff. A while a go, @nod came round to my place with his Hilti. Its painted bright red - and I painted myself green with envy. Difference is, he uses his every day, and I use mine - say - two or three times a week on average.

There's something genuinely tragic about having so much money that you think you dont need to think for yourself.

Watch them every time. Someone I know who has cause to know talks about the way some scaffolders are paid. And it's not entirely in cash

Thanks for the replies folks. Too tired / tipsy to reply sensibly. Wife is away and I'm in the pub. ? Tomorrow / Morgen / Domani / Crastino/

The key question.....

I held back £9000 from my ICF 'builders' for similar issues. I also gave him a clear, evidenced (videos, time lapse images, and plain images) reason for doing so. No request for payment of the outstanding balance, no Letter Before Action, silence in fact. For the last fortnight, and many weeks to come, I will be dealing with the effects of both my naivety and the company's unprofessional behaviour. Just search for my content relsating to Durisol (and nightmares) , its all there. 20mm over 8m is a lot. @PeterW will know whether this is an acceptable level of error. Maybe I'm showing my 'soreness' about the issue. I used to be a nice guy. 'm a nasty bastard now.

... and a request for a BH poll. In terms relevant to your discipline, might this not be one of those Multi-Arm Bandit problems? Or do I stretch Epsilon's Greed a bit far? ?

You are exactly correct. Self builders choose to self-build. This is not an attempt to draw wider conclusions from an limited population of people mad enough to build their own house(s) All statistics are produced with an end-in-mind. Here, I think all thats required is a general indication - among ourselves - of which build system is in use. The poll will be a precisely accurate reflection of the group of people who chose to ; search for and find Build Hub become members, read the post and take part in the survey Every participant in the poll will understand that - non members may not. We are not trying to Lie with Satistics .

I'll set the ball rolling and see what the Mod team thinks..... Ian