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Discussed this before elsewhere on the forum. I paid £2100 for a 200 sq metre house last autumn. Result went from 3.8 to 1.4 over a few hours. The guys did have a couple of leaky nozzles on their kit which left an invisible gloop on my walls. It is a bitch to remove, as i found out once i discovered what had happened.

That's more or less cosmetics tbf, if considering chasing a burst pipe. Most issues are with failed joints. 99.9% of failures there are installer error, the other down to a bad o-ring or similar manufacturing defect. This is the joy of radial plumbing, as the dozens of buried (enclosed) joints is near zero.

@Dreadnaught may know one?

So this is what I said earlier, which you may have missed: First, you need to confirm exactly what barrier pipe they're referring to. Is it the MPDE barrier pipe that is design for COLD water services, or are they merely referring to Hep20 or Polybutylene push-fit pipe. As a distinction for you. PEX is the push-fit pipe that has memory and it's a pain in the arse to work with. Polybutylene is the lay-flat type of pipe that has less memory, but memory still. Second, MDPE service pipes, including the barrier versions are design for cold supplier. Their specifications usually state: based upon a 50 year design life at 20˚C. Any increase above 20˚C will result in a reduction in the maximum allowable operating pressure or lifetime or possibly both. Polyethylene pipe systems should not be operated above 60˚C. Your intended purpose as I understand it is to carry domestic hot water in your kitchen. Therefore MDPE Barrier pipe is completely unsuitable for this. PEX and Polybutylene as well and MLCP (whether PEX or Pert) are tested to over 100C and are designed for hot water.

That would preclude them being threaded through studs and joists, and behind boards, fitted units....

Thanks, I'll check these out. It's not me who says to use barrier pipe... it's the others.

Yeah, pull the other one. You'll be swearing for a month of Sundays getting it straight and keeping it straight even if it is lay-flat. So you believe the marketing blurb of these but not the technical documentation for MLCP? Well, here you you go. As it's going to be in insulation, the 9mm thickness will be absolutely fine? What diameter would you like sir? 16 Blue and Red https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/plumbing/unipress-mlcp/unipress-mlcp-pipe/unipress-50mtr-mlcp-16mmx2.0-9mm-red https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/plumbing/unipress-mlcp/unipress-mlcp-pipe/unipress-50mtr-mlcp-16mmx2.0-9mm-blue 20 Blue and Red https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/plumbing/unipress-mlcp/unipress-mlcp-pipe/unipress-50mtr-mlpipe-20mmx2.0-9mm-red https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/plumbing/unipress-mlcp/unipress-mlcp-pipe/unipress-50mtr-mlpipe-20mmx2.0-9mm-blue Oh, and here you go, Wolseley, pipe in pipe Mlcp: https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/uponor-mlc-insulated-pipe-13mm-25-x-25mm-50mtr-blue/ And it confirms that: This Uponor MLC 13mm, 2.5mm thick pipe-in-pipe is designed for integration into a building structure and can be safely covered with screed. Withdrawn without causing structural damage, this water regs compliant pipe-in-pipe is supplied in 50M lengths. Product features Suitable for hot and cold and heating systems Suitable for recirculation hot water systems PE-X material construction Meets BS EN 13501-1 Complies with water regulations 1999 Any decent plumbers merchant will be able to order some in from one of the multitude of manufacturers out there and the good thing is that it's often cheaper than standard plastic PEX of Polybutylene. But hey ho, go with your barrier pipe...even if the world is moving on.

Both. All hope just got dashed. News-flash, wood absorbs moisture.......... Can't wait for the 20mm gaps when it dries out in the summer......... Will be like a saloon door in the wild west then. Builder gave a full refund so he could walk away without any damage to his reputation. Surprised he didn't garnish it with a credit. Please......... nobody 'like' this post, thanks. @-rick- you sir are a legend, god bless you and all who sail in you.

Embedded means when you cannot get to them afterwards without destruction of property (kinda thing). I could send you the regs, but it's late and I can't be arsed to write my version. You'll not be turned by simple folk such as myself, so barrier it is.

'Embedded' to me means locked solid in concrete or masonry. ie there could be differential stresses that could break the pipe or a joint, and cause water damage. That is sensible.

This was my curve above 10 deg this is my curve Room temp target 13 between 0 and 10 room temp target 17 below Zero room temp target 20 it’s basically as a result of flattening the heat curve to a very small slope and then because the room temp offset changes the curve just using that manually to compensate for the outside temp

I've done a nice sketch. the verdict? OTT and not what was anticipated, but OK. And the pipe is to be 'barrier' pipe!. I've looked at suppliers in Hep2O and Flomasta (Screwfix) . They both describe the option of barrier pipe but never mention what they mean by it. I guess it's just that if people want to ask for that , then let's use the words and sell it. JG Speedfit BPex from Toolsation says this: The pipe is made of five layers, and in the centre is a coloured oxygen barrier to prevent the ingress of air into the system - this reduces the effect of corrosion on metal components. But if eps is ever found to emit chemicals or death-rays then the colured layer of the barrier pipe will be there. Phew. It's only going to cost an extra few £ so I'll let it go. Hep2O say theirs comes off the coil straight, which must be good thing.

Yeah 100% this is something I see and most people wouldn't notice it It's more common between 4 and 8 deg C - after 10 deg it doesn't really happen It hasn't done it for a couple of days since I've changed my strategy for heating and my current WC curves are to to be frank bloody weird......... I'll post them up later but in summary I now have 3 WC curves, one for below zero, one for zero to 10 deg and one for 10 degs and above and I swap between the curves with the target room temp

This is ours heated via 3kW immersion. 210L slimline cylinder. Temp messing about 1/3 up from bottom. Basically 1hr or 3kWh to heat.

I have a very similar issue with my heat pump and working through it, I think I know what causes it. Mine occurs when the heat pump hasn't really got any work to do or on an upward outside temperature change, with a warm house. The controller wants to keep the heat pump running but it not getting the return temperature doing what it expects. It's trying to pull return temp down, but the floor isn't willing to change quickly. In our situation the floor is saturated with heat and return temperature is very stable. So the logic starts to loose control - acts like a spoilt child. Not willing to switch off, but really has nothing to do. The control logic, being to manage a dT and upper flow temp (with an over temp hysterisis). So return is stable, dT cannot be maintained with reducing target flow temperature, so controller starts to work, counter intuitively and it's normal programming isn't working. He is a plot over 50 mins. The previous hour to this outside temp rose a couple of degrees, plus the sun was starting come through from dark and below zero. I have set up a simple thermostat to kill the heat pump, when house hits a given level, about 0.2 above target room temperature. This limits this behaviour quite well. Your radiator system could be doing exactly the same thing, it just cannot shed the heat, so return temperature stays stable. You boiler control system isn't setup by Viessmann to cover this situation? The same as my Hiaer one isn't. This is a problem 99.9% of users will never notice, I monitor mine to death, so see everything, so do you.

My only experience with low energy input is when my last boiler failed and I used the immersion. 3kw rated immersion seemed to have no trouble getting my 170L tank up to temp within an hour (from too cold to shower to plenty warm enough - can't be more precise than that).

Thanks for the update and I'm glad you are trying this. I assume with the controller still in the upper bedroom? If our guesses about your building are correct, it will take some time to warm. So while you are running this experiment I suggest the following: 1. Keep internal doors open - you want the air to be able to move around to equalise all the internal space* 2. Daily, open the windows for a good ten minutes to ensure the place has a good blow through (I think you said you did this anyway). 3. Regularly check the radiators with a thermometer ideally something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ERICKHILL-Thermometer-Non-Contact-Adjustable-Emissivity/dp/B0C72MDQ2Z?crid=2V242L59HQZZ8&sprefix=ir%2Bthermom%2Caps%2C225&sr=8-6&th=1 The radiators should be warm and at approximately the same temperature (guessing around 50C) if the room with the thermostat in it is colder than 16C. If some radiators are colder than others or if the radiators are often not hot then there may be a problem with the system that needs fixing before things will warm up. *If you get hot at night or if you leave the bedroom window open at night, close the bedroom door to isolate the room from the rest of the house. You can also turn that specific radiator off at night and back on in the morning if it helps with bedroom temp (a good idea if you have the window open anyway). I know you said you will try this for 2 months but if you don't feel things improving at all in 2 weeks then maybe come back then.

It's in the Water Regulations:

Is the moral of the story don’t live in a rain forest? Or beware trolls?

Well Viessmann technical have washed their hands of the boilers behaviour - their conclusion is that it is normal behaviour for a heat only boiler running weather compensation I'd done a few videos showing the boiler behaviour and shared them with the technical team hoping that this would help to point me in the right direction if it was a set up issue Seeing as they are adamant it's not a boiler issue as such I'll share one here Basically attached a remote microphone to the boiler because the phone itself can't pick up the sound change when it ramps up or down and then filmed the Vicare app on another phone which shows flow temp and modulation level so it's as dull as a dull thing from a content perspective The commentary to go with it is in the description but I'll put it below as well 9.7 Deg Outside Air Temp - Target Flow temp ~25 Deg C Timelines (so you can skip the boring bits) 00:00:20 Boiler Starts (Initial Purge and Burn followed by ramp down) 00:02:12 Boiler at "Minimum modulation" 00:02:47 Running thro the settings (Weather Comp Curve Slope and Level) 00:03:22 thro to 00:15:35 Boiler stable running at min (flow temp slowly rising from initial 27.7 Deg C to 29.2 Deg C) 00:15:37 Boiler modulation increases driving flow temp higher faster 00:17:43 Boiler modulation decreases and then rises again 00:20:18 Boiler modulates back to minimum - flow temps drop to 30.5 Deg C 00:21:45 Boiler shuts down (due to flow temp exceeding target plus 5) 00:21:16 Running thro the settings (Weather Comp Curve Slope and Level)

I found it in there somewhere, but did the design 6 years ago now, so no longer have to hand. May not even be in the latest edition.

I didn't know this, and didn't do it. Can you provide a reference or link to the relevant section in the building handbook / approved docs. I've looked but I can't find it. Thanks.

In an attempt to understand my errant boiler behaviour I recently tried to heat a tank of HW with a 16kW boiler when range rated to 4 kWh - it's only a 115 Litre tank to say progress was glacial was an understatement - a bigger tank would definitely be little and often

Right I'm not playing anymore. Well until I do an update that is in 2 months, & in the meantime FYI I've set the HP up to: Setback 16*C (including night goddamit). Required Temp 18*C. 3x blocks of Timer period: 7:30-9:00 then 12:30-14:00 then 17:30-21:00. So on -far more- continually than I had it before. So far.. I cannot tell a fart of difference (& even saw my breath as per usual in the bathroom yesterday, 11*C outside temp). But I shall give it time. -- Secondly. I remember a situation which is the BEST example of this OTT wet climate atmosphere thing, which you all ridicule & so certain simply cannot be true.. One job my builder did (along with the 2021 extention, thankfully well-built) was put in a new back door & frame. Bought from Howdens in town, with a basic hardwood frame. Now, my builder was reknown as the best around, most experienced. My extension proof enough. Door opened outwards (giving me more room in my back hall), & all fine. Swung open great. Nice solid heavy feel, quality hinges & handle. I painted 3x with Sadolin stuff he recommended. 4x coats on the top edge, & bottom edge. 1 month later the door was sticking, a week on, it was jammed shut. He trimmed a bit off edge, I repainted, rehung. I saw a good gap now. 6mm min. 6 weeks later, door was jammed solid again. Builder called, now a bit 'welsh angry' forced it open. Jigged it. Door was ok. 2 months on, again, it had jammed solid. Builder refunded me for the whole door job! Very decent of him, as it wasn't his fault. I took it off, trimmed another 5mm, rehung it, now at max possible trimming area. I noticed it had also got a slight bow in it too. It opened ok. 2 weeks ago, first open since winter proper, jammed solid again. It hasn't jammed solid, each time, due to any dampmess within the cottage/ in the immediate area: IE the door back entrance area to my (cold yes, but perfectly dry) 80's exention. I have never had any damp issues in the extension. Not the kitchen, bathroom, the small hall, nor any evident in the loft area above. It is quite simply, a dry extension. Now. The cause of the door doing this. You will list a,b,c as possible/ probable causes. But you'd do so as excuses, rather than accept the blindingly obvious: the local particularly & unusually damp atmospheric conditions, seeped into the fabric of the door, swelling it. A ludicrous ammount. Not only width, but warped it. As a consequence, it's NOW useless/ junk/ needs replacing again. It was a decent-quality door when new, but within a very short timeframe has --become-- junk. Because it has changed, structurally. It has been ruined. No iffs, no buts. That is an absolute fact. This was HOWDENS. And treated especially well, especially carefully by me 1) because it it was my door, & B) because I was aware of the damp (local area air) facet. I knew it existed. I did my utmost to keep it at bay, keep itmout of the structure of this door, but even this was a fruitless exercise. THAT is how pervasive, it is. How ruinous. How it leeches into every aspect of your life here. Without respite almost 365 days a year you feel it. This is absolute proof of it. This & the always-wet feeling limp post, I collect each day, from outside my front door/ that I collect from outside my dwelling........ are categorical proof. Whatever you guys say. You guys, some migjt be builders, most let's say very experienced amateurs/ &/or semi-pro standard. Without any question far above my level of knowledge. But look, so was my builder, when he said "oh no, I wouldn't want to do that/ no sorry I'm not happy with that idea" & refused the job of pouring 2 large concrete foundation 'pads' for my log cabin's base. I got a local guy to do the job. And with help from BH, the job was done, cabin is a success. So, the builder 65 yrs old, hugely experienced & known as the best around (& with it a premium in his quotes), who knows the area like back of his hand, whose ancestors lived in my very cottage 1855 or so... he was wrong. And you guys (not up to his standard)... were correct. And so by the same token, I am correct with regards to this strange & indescribable local wet air facet, & you naysayers who say it doesn't exist.... you all of you who club together singing from the same denial-hymnsheet on it.. are purely & simply wrong. That is all. Update in 2 months. Thank you, Zoot

We have our cold water pipes embedded in the concrete sub floor. Scottish building regs say the pipes need to be replaceable. So used 20mm flex conduit, tie wrapped to the rebar. Good thing we always have nice cold water, summer and winter. DHW pipes could have gone in the insulation but they are run elsewhere. But no joints below ground.