Experiences Mitigating Moderate Overheating in Design

[Ferdinand]

3 minutes ago, lizzie said:

@Ferdinand good tips thanks

 

@NSS can the sageglass be retrofitted into the Internorm frames?

 

I think one issue with Sageglass will be electrical connections during retrofit without messing it all up.

 

F

Edited June 5, 2019 by Ferdinand

[lizzie]

3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I think one issue with Sageglass will be electrical connections during retrofit without messing it all up.

 

F

ah thank you!  Knew it wouldn't be that easy!

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I think one issue with Sageglass will be electrical connections during retrofit without messing it all up.

 

F

 

 

I've looked at ways of doing this, and it does seem possible to remove the existing glazing and drill small holes for the wiring.  There would be some disruption where the wires are chased into walls, but no more than that caused by adding a new socket.  The key thing seems to be whether there is enough room in the frame to lead the wires to the holes.  It looked as if it might be possible for our frames, but I've not positively confirmed this.

[Ferdinand]

25 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

I've looked at ways of doing this, and it does seem possible to remove the existing glazing and drill small holes for the wiring.  There would be some disruption where the wires are chased into walls, but no more than that caused by adding a new socket.  The key thing seems to be whether there is enough room in the frame to lead the wires to the holes.  It looked as if it might be possible for our frames, but I've not positively confirmed this.

 

Cheers @JSHarris and  @NSS.

 

Will this be tricky for larger 3g windows, due to the weight of the window?

 

Or is Sageglass a supply-and-fit item, and you just need to supervise like Alfred the Great's mum with baking?

 

Does it come as a 3g unit and they take the old one away?

 

F

Edited June 5, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, Ferdinand said:

 

Will this be tricky for larger 3g windows, due to the weight of the window?

 

Or is Sageglass a supply-and-fit item, and you just need to supervise like Alfred the Great's mum with baking?

 

F

 

 

I believe that the wires come out of the sides of the glazing units (@NSS might be able to advise), so as long as there is enough space there it should be OK.  I had the opportunity to look inside the glazing on our front gable, as a glazing unit had to be replaced (under warranty).  There were plastic packers all around the edges of the glazing, with a gap of around 3mm to 4mm between the glazing edges and the inside of the frame.  As long as the wires could fit inside that gap it seemed likely that Sageglass could be installed.  The best thing would seem to be to drill the wire holes in the frame exactly in line with where the wires come out of the glazing units, but not having seen a unit I'm not exactly sure how the wires are arranged.

[jack]

9 hours ago, NSS said:

... and I'd suggest SageGlass is a far more elegant solution. 

 

Actually, I suppose it depends on your house design, but we really like the look of the external venetian blinds on our house. When we specced them we assumed we'd open them all the way every day, but at the front, we just tilt them about halfway open in the mornings. I think they look better down than out of sight! 

 

They also prevent people seeing in during the day, but allow you to see out between the slats. 

[Ferdinand]

8 minutes ago, jack said:

They also prevent people seeing in during the day, but allow you to see out between the slats. 

 

That sounds a bit sinister... 

 

I will now imagine you as Action-Man-with-Eagle-Eyes, behind your carefully adjusted blinds.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Dreadnaught]

@jack, to what extent do your external blinds reduce light levels? Do they produce near black out when fully closed? My thoughts are whether external blinds like yours would remove the need for internal black-out blinds in a bedroom.

[Dan F]

Sinister or "fun"?   Off topic, I know but reminded me of this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Map8ik9CQ8 (Micky Flanagan - Peeping)

 

[Ferdinand]

4 minutes ago, Dan Feist said:

Sinister or "fun"?   Off topic, I know but reminded me of this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Map8ik9CQ8 (Micky Flanagan - Peeping)

 

 

I don't think we are quite in Rear Window territory :-).

 

Though Ali McBeal did have a telescope ...

 

It's a good thread so we'd better get back on topic.

[jack]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I have family who build electric external roller-shutter style security blinds into an extension in 2001.

 

1 - The security aspect was overegged for them as they are in a row of semis and garages so getting to the back is difficult anyway. For an isolated or private house - yes.

2 - They do use them for solar blocking sometimes.

3 - They do really need to be designed in first wrt soffits etc, then they can be properly invisible.

4 - You do ideally want a "touch and release" option not just "touch and hold" switches. By the time you have stood next to 4 blinds for 30s each, it is tedious.

5 - Ideally also an "all close" or "all open" switch.

6 - "Easy to use" is very important; or you won't use them.

 

Ours are controlled via our home automation system. While they can be controlled to change angle during the day to allow for different sun angles, we tend to just have them open, closed, or at around 50% tilt.

 

We program them so that:

- Most automatically close completely at dusk 

- Those that aren't in people's bedrooms open to 50% at 7 in the morning on weekdays. They're left for manual opening on the weekends.

- The one's in people's bedrooms are manually opened when the occupant gets up.

 

The controls are an up/down spring-loaded rocker switch. Starting from closed, a double click up will cause them to tilt open and then retract completely. A quick jab from closed will cause them to rotate around 25%, so two quick jabs (but not a double click) will open them to around 50%, which is the most usual position during the day. Holding the rocker up from closed will initially cause them to rotate open and then continue upwards until they reach the fully retracted position.

 

From retracted, a double click down will cause them to close completely.

 

Clicking again at any point will stop the current motion.

 

We have an "all open" and an "all closed" button programmed into the home automation app. If it were a function we used often enough I could program one of the switches somewhere in the house to trigger these actions.

 

I have a holiday mode I can trigger, which emulates us being home.

 

Interestingly, our home automation system is Loxone. When I went on the training course, they mentioned the blinds control was the most common way that customers found them. 

 

Oh, and it's worth considering whether you want security as well as shading. The blinds we have are very much for shading and aesthetics rather than security. They can be lifted up much like standard interior venetian blinds (albeit constrained within side rails). That said, I'm sure the average burglar taking a quick glance would assume they're security shutters. However, when we retrofit external shutters to our bedroom windows and glass door to the flat roof above our garage, we're going for security shutters rather than venetians.

[Dreadnaught]

2 minutes ago, jack said:

However, when we retrofit external shutters to our bedroom windows and glass door to the flat roof above our garage, we're going for security shutters rather than venetians.

 

I wonder how would security blinds interact with fire evacuation requirements for a bedroom? I saw a reference online to a US site that said such security roller blinds for a bedroom were not allowed there because of building regulations, presumably fire evacuation regulations.

 

It is relevant for the bedrooms in my bungalow I think, for which the windows have fire-evacuation sized openings.

[jack]

10 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

@jack, to what extent do your external blinds reduce light levels? Do they produce near black out when fully closed? My thoughts are whether external blinds like yours would remove the need for internal black-out blinds in a bedroom.

 

I think I've mentioned it in another thread, but we were totally caught out by this. I assumed they'd be more or less completely light blocking, but they aren't. There's a 5+mm gap on both sides, plus lots of small holes where the tapes and control wires go through the slats. Especially when the sun is shining directly on them, they definitely don't keep all the light out.

 

We're about to retrofit proper blackout blinds in the bedrooms to overcome this. Unfortunately, because we never considered this issue, we haven't made provision for recessing the blinds into the ceiling or wall so they're out of sight. If I were doing this again, I'd still go for the same blinds on most windows, but would make provision for concealed internal roller blinds. 

[jack]

1 minute ago, Dreadnaught said:

I wonder how would security blinds interact with fire evacuation requirements for a bedroom? I saw a reference online to a US site that said such security roller blinds for a bedroom were not allowed there because of building regulations, presumably fire evacuation regulations.

 

It is relevant for the bedrooms in my bungalow I think, for which the windows have fire-evacuation sized openings.

 

That's a really good question, and one I've definitely thought about. There will only be one room (our bedroom) with security blinds, and there's a large window onto a terrace from the adjoining ensuite. I'm not too concerned.

[Dreadnaught]

Thanks @jack, I went back to some of your earlier posts. Lots of interesting reading there! It seems you have re-branded Hunter Douglas blinds.

 

I notice that @Bitpipe has roma.de blinds on Gaulhofer windows (fixed to the windows in the factory). I wonder if they produce blackout? (He said in 2016 that "and can almost act as a blackout").

 

Edit: I notice that the Gaulhofer website says: "People who want their home to be absolutely dark are advised to go for roller shutters. For everyone else who find 99% darkness sufficient and prefer a bit more flexibility in terms of light management, Venetian shutters are the first choice."

Edited June 5, 2019 by Dreadnaught

[jack]

17 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

Thanks @jack, I went back to some of your earlier posts. Lots of interesting reading there! It seems you have re-branded Hunter Douglas blinds.

 

Yes, from memory that's right. They were supplied with our windows, so we didn't see the brand. When we were considering retrofitting the same blinds (ie, before we decided on security shutters instead), we did figure out from the fairly unique profile of the slats that Hunter Douglas was the most likely OEM behind them. 

[Bitpipe]

4 hours ago, Dreadnaught said:

Thanks @jack, I went back to some of your earlier posts. Lots of interesting reading there! It seems you have re-branded Hunter Douglas blinds.

 

I notice that @Bitpipe has roma.de blinds on Gaulhofer windows (fixed to the windows in the factory). I wonder if they produce blackout? (He said in 2016 that "and can almost act as a blackout").

 

Edit: I notice that the Gaulhofer website says: "People who want their home to be absolutely dark are advised to go for roller shutters. For everyone else who find 99% darkness sufficient and prefer a bit more flexibility in terms of light management, Venetian shutters are the first choice."

 

I have the Venetian style overlapping shutters - when fully down they're quite dark but not 100% blackout. 

 

We have them on the street facing east side of the house for privacy and to minimise morning solar gain. Kids rooms are on that side and I take great enjoyment each morning opening them up to wake them

 

[NSS]

On 05/06/2019 at 08:53, lizzie said:

@Ferdinand good tips thanks

 

@NSS can the sageglass be retrofitted into the Internorm frames?

 

I'm not sure there is a straightforward yes or no answer to that question @lizzie. As @JSHarris has mentioned, there is need to get a 2-core cable to each frame from wherever you site the control panel, plus another cable from the external light sensor to the control panel. 

 

The SageGlass 3G IGUs are 44mm thick which was fine for our Interior frames but not all frames will take a 44mm unit.

 

As for connecting the cables to the glazing units, it's not quite as simple as @JSHarris suggests, i.e. it's not just a 2-wire to poke through and connect. The SageGlass units come with a cable 'tail' that has a flat connector on the end. The cable from the control panel has a similar connector and, when mated, the connector sits between the frame and the edge of the glazing unit. From memory these connectors when joined are circa 4mm thick so there needs to be provision for this in the sizing of the frame/glazing units.

 

Frankly, I wouldn't contemplate retro-fitting SageGlass into a finished house as it would be a huge undertaking to discretely route the cables. It would also be less cost-effective as you would be ditching the glazing units that were originally fitted. Whereas, if factored in at the design stage, as we did, it's much easier to justify the expense.

[Bitpipe]

15 minutes ago, NSS said:

 

I'm not sure there is a straightforward yes or no answer to that question @lizzie. As @JSHarris has mentioned, there is need to get a 2-core cable to each frame from wherever you site the control panel, plus another cable from the external light sensor to the control panel. 

 

The SageGlass 3G IGUs are 44mm thick which was fine for our Interior frames but not all frames will take a 44mm unit.

 

As for connecting the cables to the glazing units, it's not quite as simple as @JSHarris suggests, i.e. it's not just a 2-wire to poke through and connect. The SageGlass units come with a cable 'tail' that has a flat connector on the end. The cable from the control panel has a similar connector and, when mated, the connector sits between the frame and the edge of the glazing unit. From memory these connectors when joined are circa 4mm thick so there needs to be provision for this in the sizing of the frame/glazing units.

 

Frankly, I wouldn't contemplate retro-fitting SageGlass into a finished house as it would be a huge undertaking to discretely route the cables. It would also be less cost-effective as you would be ditching the glazing units that were originally fitted. Whereas, if factored in at the design stage, as we did, it's much easier to justify the expense.

 

Each of our blinds came with a 4 core 13A cable (two lives to drive the motor in each direction). These needed a bit of care to make sure they came through the airtightness properly, and then wired into a fused switch location. Same story for the Velux.

 

Can't imagine how tricky that would be with a cable for each pane!

[joth]

Does anyway have recent example of the  cost  SageGlass adds over a "normal" 3G window?

 

As a data point: upgrading to 4G and internal blinds to our Internorm quote adds about £300 +VAT/m2 to our total. This is based on 16m2 over 12 panes (hence 12 separate blinds + motors).  Given this adds privacy  light and sound benefits as well has heat control, I'm currently favouring this option

I saw in another thread @NSS mentioned £1-2k/m2 (plus control system) for SageGlass a few years ago, but there seemed to be an asterisk against that? (Need to factor in discounts and remove the cost of the normal glazing saved)

Thanks

 

[NSS]

1 hour ago, joth said:

Does anyway have recent example of the  cost  SageGlass adds over a "normal" 3G window?

 

As a data point: upgrading to 4G and internal blinds to our Internorm quote adds about £300 +VAT/m2 to our total. This is based on 16m2 over 12 panes (hence 12 separate blinds + motors).  Given this adds privacy  light and sound benefits as well has heat control, I'm currently favouring this option

I saw in another thread @NSS mentioned £1-2k/m2 (plus control system) for SageGlass a few years ago, but there seemed to be an asterisk against that? (Need to factor in discounts and remove the cost of the normal glazing saved)

Thanks

 

Can't answer the cost question, but a few things things you may wish to consider. 1) does that blind cost provide an automated solution, i.e. closing the blinds automatically when solar gain is going to lead to overheating or does it rely on you being there to close them? 2) when blinds are closed that will inhibit (if not totally obscure) your view out, whereas with SageGlass you can still see out, albeit through tinted glass, and 3) we also looked at integrating blinds into our Internorm Windows, but the advice (at least then) was that they wouldn't offer the level of reduction in Solar Gain that SageGlass offers (and of course SageGlass tints progressively to suit the conditions at any specific moment).

 

Noise reduction wasn't an issue for us, but automated control of Solar Gain very much was. Brilliant sunshine here today but the glass is only about 33% tinted as the sensor recognises that the sun is high in the sky so the angle it is hitting the glass means the solar gain is not as great as when the sun is lower.

[Dan F]

On 05/06/2019 at 10:01, jack said:

Ours are controlled via our home automation system. While they can be controlled to change angle during the day to allow for different sun angles, we tend to just have them open, closed, or at around 50% tilt.

 

@jack What brand shutters are you using? Also, what system are you using for automating them?

 

Think I'm going to look at Pazen and Gaulhofer options for windows, given both can be supplied with blinds.  Will also look at Warema/Roma standalone blinds also. Sageglass seems a smart solution but very pricey.

 

I'll be looking for the following:

- Ability to automate.

- Ability to blackout (even if this requires different optional slats)

- Ability to close the bottom half and open top half.

- Compatibility with external glass guarding.

 

Will report back once I work out what seems to make most sense manufacturer wise.  Any recommendations please let me know.

 

Thanks!

 

[jack]

11 minutes ago, Dan Feist said:

 

@jack What brand shutters are you using? Also, what system are you using for automating them?

 

I think we figured out that the shutters were the z profile from Hunter Douglas. Control is by Loxone, which also takes care of lighting.

[puntloos]

On 05/06/2019 at 10:30, Dreadnaught said:

Thanks @jack, I went back to some of your earlier posts. Lots of interesting reading there! It seems you have re-branded Hunter Douglas blinds.

 

I notice that @Bitpipe has roma.de blinds on Gaulhofer windows (fixed to the windows in the factory). I wonder if they produce blackout? (He said in 2016 that "and can almost act as a blackout").

 

Edit: I notice that the Gaulhofer website says: "People who want their home to be absolutely dark are advised to go for roller shutters. For everyone else who find 99% darkness sufficient and prefer a bit more flexibility in terms of light management, Venetian shutters are the first choice."

 

"99" sounds quite optimistic. No idea what is a fair point but as someone who loves light and can't get enough in winter, I worry having venetians would block a noticeable amount. 

[puntloos]

On 08/06/2019 at 12:37, Dan Feist said:

 

@jack What brand shutters are you using? Also, what system are you using for automating them?

 

Think I'm going to look at Pazen and Gaulhofer options for windows, given both can be supplied with blinds.  Will also look at Warema/Roma standalone blinds also. Sageglass seems a smart solution but very pricey.

 

I'll be looking for the following:

- Ability to automate.

- Ability to blackout (even if this requires different optional slats)

- Ability to close the bottom half and open top half.

- Compatibility with external glass guarding.

 

Will report back once I work out what seems to make most sense manufacturer wise.  Any recommendations please let me know.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Excellent thread so far. Some useful stuff to learn I might be able to avoid.. thanks..

 

One thing I always struggle with is .. well.. clouds.. meaning: on a cloudy day, during spring and autumn, a good patch of sun can meaningfully heat the place, whilst a batch of clouds can make the place a touch chilly and perhaps manual heating would be good.

 

Does anyone have a system that tries to react to external brightness? Is it a good idea? I could imagine having windows blinds up and down and up might be a bit noisy.. and of course once you heat the place, you can't "roll it back"...