Self build..what did you do?

[NeverEnoughCake]

Hello...new to this site, just at the early stages of a build in a field in Wales, 12 acre plot on a hill above the snow line. Site is accessible by a hardcore track. We are just getting our plans ready to be submitted but we are making a few amendments, and we have a concern about the type of foundations required. We have e mailed a builder several days ago, requesting a build quote and some advice on where to site the build regarding the foundations, and had no response. We registered with RatedPeople and got one response..from a landscape gardener. We need this advice before we submit our site plan. We have planned to have a main contractor for the core, shell and roof, and we will arrange everything else from the first fix onward. But we are now wondering whether to have a specialist ground worker for the foundations, then find a good brickie for the blocks and stone, then find a roofer. We also want quotes on labour only, as we will need to get the materials from the roadside to the site using tractors, and we want more control over price and VAT claim. Has anyone done this using separate contractors for everything? 

Cheers.

[Ian]

@NeverEnoughCake

Welcome and good luck with your build!

I finished my own build 2 years ago and it is similar to yours - it is in N Wales above the snow line  on a steeply sloping site with difficult access. 

I work full time so went for an off-site manufactured timber frame that the supplier brought to site in small, easily transported sections, then they erected it & and left it weather tight. We then went with separate trades for the rest of the build.

Our timber frame company did the (traditional ground-bearing ) foundations as I didn't want any division of responsibility or scope for any arguments. (Timber frame construction needs tighter foundation tolerances than a masonry build)

 

Re your build foundations: the location will be set by your planning permission so a builder won't be able to help with that. The ground conditions of your site will dictate what type of foundation you can use but as you're on a hill in Wales it's likely that you'll have ground like us with a lot of rock/shale. If it's good ground then there's usually no need to get an engineer to design the foundations. In our case I agreed it all with the Approved Building Inspector who knew the local area well.

 

Edit:

The single best thing we did with our own build was to wait until late Spring and the improving weather before starting work on site. We started digging foundations in early June. Timber frame started on site mid June and we had a weather tight shell 2 weeks later. We were then able to finish off the build at a more leisurely pace without being dependant on the weather or being able to get access.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Ian

[Ian]

@NeverEnoughCake

Just re-reading your original post. Have you got Planning Permission yet?

[NeverEnoughCake]

Thank you Ian for the reply 

When you say the planning permission set the location, I thought they would go by the site plan we submit..which is why we need to know if the location we choose in the field will be within costs for foundations. This is a cash build, we are not intending to have any loans, mortgages or credit card debt and so we must know as precisely as possible what the costs will be before. Are you saying the planning people will tell us where we can build? Never done this before so all advice gratefully received.

[Sue B]

Welcome to the forum.  A real quote takes some time to get right so if I read your post correctly, you haven’t got planning permission and a builder will not want to spend time doing a quote that has no real prospect at the moment of work coming from it.

 

it sounds like you need to start at the beginning -  real quotes are a long way from where you are at the moment.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Sue B

[Big Jimbo]

You will need to tell the council (planning permission) where on your land you want to build, and what you want to build. they will then hopefully grant you permission.

[Ferdinand]

3 minutes ago, NeverEnoughCake said:

I thought they would go by the site plan we submit

 

Yes, but they will evaluate that against all the relevant policy etc.

 

I would start by talking to your Local Planning Authority about the site, and asking them what you need to do.

 

Ferdinand

[Ian]

1 minute ago, NeverEnoughCake said:

Thank you Ian for the reply 

When you say the planning permission set the location, I thought they would go by the site plan we submit..which is why we need to know if the location we choose in the field will be within costs for foundations. This is a cash build, we are not intending to have any loans, mortgages or credit card debt and so we must know as precisely as possible what the costs will be before. Are you saying the planning people will tell us where we can build? Never done this before so all advice gratefully received.

aaahh....I see what stage you're at now. When I read your first post I thought you were ready to start on site!

 

You will need Planning Permission which is usually a lengthy difficult process, especially if your site is in a designated AONB or National Park like ours was.

It's highly unlikely that all of your 12 acre site will be zoned for housing. I'd talk first to whoever is doing your drawings for the planning application before deciding where you want to site the building.

[Big Neil]

Hello Cake,

 

Are you one of the people on that scheme where you get the land for nothing but have to build a property that generates at least half it's own energy and half it's own food within 10 years? I vaguely remember reading something about it in the telegraph last year some time?

[Big Neil]

so i got the figures wrong and I suppose it can't be (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/eco-homes-wales-sustainable-housing-britain/)

 

Any idea what if anything you'll be doing with most of the land?

[NeverEnoughCake]

Sue...

I know what your saying..we had terrible trouble getting costs for windows and doors..they want to come out and measure to give a price but we have nothing to measure yet, but we know exactly what we want and what sizes they will be. We persevered and found a company we were happy with who did give us a quote based on our measurements, on the understanding that they will come out and measure themselves when we are ready to install. We just needed a ball park figure to work with, we are not in the position where we can just wing it. The thing is we will need windows, and now that company is going to get our business, we won't compare prices we will just use them because they have already been helpful, the same will probably go for anyone that estimates the build.

[Sue B]

Ummmm, it’s an unusual way to work.  I understand cost certainty - we currently have no idea how we are going to afford to build our house yet but have a rough idea.  We may end up with planning permission and will then have to sell up and move on - time will tell.

 

Everyone will tell you that ground works are the most uncertain costs - you really won’t know the cost until you have finished.  You can test the ground as much as you like but until you actually start to put the foundations down, you don’t know if you are going to find something unusual.

 

Planning permission is your first step - either designing yourself or via an architect or an architect technician.  

 

Deciding on that particular window supplier because they have given you a price is probably not the most cost effective choice.  They may well have given a price that is not competitive as they will not be viewing you as a serious prospect.   I may be wrong but pricing on a house that hasn’t even gone to planning, if I was the owner of the window company, would not be a considered quote - it would be a “back of the fag packet” estimate.   

[Jeremy Harris]

I'd second what @Sue B has written, and add that, based on our experience, window and door suppliers were far and away the most difficult people to get a firm price from.  We had a massive variation in price from one supplier to another, for pretty much the same specification.  I also found them reluctant to quote until the house was up, and some initial quotes we had, based on just the approved plans, were way more than the price we ended up paying.

[NeverEnoughCake]

Big Neil.. 

It's part of an inherited farm and very complicated. Family farm left to two members of the family. Neither want to sell, neither in a position to buy the other out. Fortunately very good relationship and agreement made. We will take the parcel of land and hopefully build, but we need to secure planning permission to have this work. Subsequently, all planning applications will be made on our behalf by our solicitor because there's all sorts of other legal stuff that goes with it. Three big fields, hoping to build in one as off grid as we can be and plant 1.5-2 acres of woodland for coppicing, other fields kept as grazing.

[Ian]

4 minutes ago, NeverEnoughCake said:

Big Neil.. 

It's part of an inherited farm and very complicated. Family farm left to two members of the family. Neither want to sell, neither in a position to buy the other out. Fortunately very good relationship and agreement made. We will take the parcel of land and hopefully build, but we need to secure planning permission to have this work. Subsequently, all planning applications will be made on our behalf by our solicitor because there's all sorts of other legal stuff that goes with it. Three big fields, hoping to build in one as off grid as we can be and plant 1.5-2 acres of woodland for coppicing, other fields kept as grazing.

It might be worth you looking at this Welsh Government initiative:

https://gweddill.gov.wales/docs/desh/publications/090521susdev1wales1planeten.pdf

According to a spokeman it is "intended to provide an opportunity for those wishing to live a highly sustainable lifestyle, project a light touch on the environment, and who will be largely self-sufficient in terms of income, food, and energy,"

[ProDave]

Re your foundations.  You need a structural engineer and he will come and witness some test holes being dug so he can see what the ground is, and design foundations to suit.

 

On a Welsh hill above the snow line. This sounds like an old Grand Designs where they could not even reach the plot for most of the winter, and at one point a spring appeared in the hill above them running out and through the house.  Best of luck!!!!

[Sue B]

Also - I’m assuming that RatedPeople is something like Check a Trade?  If so, again you are not going to get a great builder that way.  You may be lucky but in all probability you will end up with a builder short of work.  A builder short of work generally means they are not very good - of course a job may have fallen through and so they are suddenly looking for work for their workforce but that is less likely.  Local recommendations are the best way to find good builders.

Edited April 12, 2019 by Sue B

[NeverEnoughCake]

Pro Dave

Yep...we got springs alright! But we think the problem will be solved when the field above us has a dodgy drainage system sorted out, also another reason for the woodland..to suck up water as well as fuel woodburner! So regarding the engineer, would he be able to complete groundworks also or are they purely advisory?

[recoveringbuilder]

I wouldn’t be having a solicitor apply for planning, I know of a couple near here who had a nursery/garden centre and they got their solicitor to make an application for planning on the ground, straight away refused!

they sold up and the new owners got planning for a whole new culdesac of houses, anything that is not straightforward is better handled by someone who has good experience of planning policies 

[Ian]

4 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

I wouldn’t be having a solicitor apply for planning, I know of a couple near here who had a nursery/garden centre and they got their solicitor to make an application for planning on the ground, straight away refused!

they sold up and the new owners got planning for a whole new culdesac of houses, anything that is not straightforward is better handled by someone who has good experience of planning policies 

I agree completely with @Christine Walker You would be far better using a local Planning Consultant rather than a solicitor for the planning application. If you are in North Wales rather than South then I can recommend the one I used.

[NeverEnoughCake]

Ian

Mid Wales, and if we bought the land and it was straightforward we wouldn't use our solicitor, but like I said..lots of other legal stuff goes with it.

[Ian]

@NeverEnoughCake

Having read through all the thread so far I think your next step in the process is to make your application for Planning Permission. They take a long time and suppliers and builders will be much more willing to talk to you about prices once you have PP.

If you need advice about potential build costs for your 10m x 8.5m bungalow ask away and you should get lots of good advice. Mine was also a 2 bed bungalow 13.5m x 6.75m (external dimensions) and in 2016/17 it cost £96k for the finished building, 5k for external works on a 1.5 acre site and a further £7k for other costs eg PP inc an appeal; Building Regs; demolition of a previous building

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, NeverEnoughCake said:

Sue...

I know what your saying..we had terrible trouble getting costs for windows and doors..they want to come out and measure to give a price but we have nothing to measure yet, but we know exactly what we want and what sizes they will be. We persevered and found a company we were happy with who did give us a quote based on our measurements, on the understanding that they will come out and measure themselves when we are ready to install. We just needed a ball park figure to work with, we are not in the position where we can just wing it. The thing is we will need windows, and now that company is going to get our business, we won't compare prices we will just use them because they have already been helpful, the same will probably go for anyone that estimates the build.

On this point. What you need is to QS your job. You may even get a QS to do this for a reasonable fee - but it is not difficult to do yourself - just takes time and a fair bit of knowledge of all the materials and all the bits that go into a build to make it happen - which is why sometimes if your not in the industry it can be difficult. 

 

I would set up a tender cover document, a standard document with your details on it, and then add it as a cover document to your window schedule or electrical schedule, so people receive it, they will immediately treat you with a bit more respect and they will tend to offer better quality written quotations - this is how the building industry works. It is common for designers and engineers and architects to submit tender packages to suppliers and manufacturers to gauge costs on builds and to do their budgeting due diligence, this can even be before a client has even gone for planning but we all need to keep an eye on costs, so suppliers are used to receiving this sort of thing and it will often result in your being contacted by account managers who will look after you and are often very helpful. 

 

This will help you to control all your costs. 

 

As for your foundations, I can see your issue, you want to pick the best spot on the land to have an easier ride with the foundations, makes sense, what you need to do is try and find out what you are standing on to ascertain the best building ground, consider also water run off and utility routes etc.

 

A geotechnical survey might be worth the money - have a look on the borehole database and see if there are any boreholes near you - they could help you to understand your ground. 

 

 

[ProDave]

A structural engineer is a designer. He does calculations and produces drawings from which someone else makes them.

[Jeremy Harris]

48 minutes ago, NeverEnoughCake said:

Big Neil.. 

It's part of an inherited farm and very complicated. Family farm left to two members of the family. Neither want to sell, neither in a position to buy the other out. Fortunately very good relationship and agreement made. We will take the parcel of land and hopefully build, but we need to secure planning permission to have this work. Subsequently, all planning applications will be made on our behalf by our solicitor because there's all sorts of other legal stuff that goes with it. Three big fields, hoping to build in one as off grid as we can be and plant 1.5-2 acres of woodland for coppicing, other fields kept as grazing.

 

I'd never want to use a solicitor for any planning application, as it's way outside their skill set, plus they will almost certainly charge more than anyone who understands the planning process properly. 

 

The sequence you need to go though is this:

 

Do some basic investigations as to ground conditions on the land, so you can determine if there are areas where it's going to be easier/cheaper to build.

 

Draw up, or get someone to draw up, outline plans for planning consent.  These do not need to be very detailed, take a look at this page of our blog: http://www.mayfly.eu/2013/04/part-two-the-joy-of-planning/ and also the planning drawings that I submitted, and that are still on the LA website, here: https://planning.wiltshire.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdDetails.aspx?PT=Planning Applications On-Line&TYPE=PL/PlanningPK.xml&PARAM0=500894&XSLT=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Wiltshire/xslt/PL/PLDetails.xslt&FT=Planning Application Details&PUBLIC=Y&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Wiltshire/Menus/PL.xml&DAURI=PLANNING to get an idea as to what's involved (your planners may have additional requirements, as they vary a bit from one region to another).

 

Once you have planning permission, draw up, or get drawn up, detailed plans and apply for Building Regulations approval.  Again, I did this myself, and the details are on this page of our blog: http://www.mayfly.eu/2013/09/part-fifteen-the-site-is-finally-ready/

 

Once you have planning permission, then you can look at going out to tender for the building work.  I opted to tender for the major groundwork first, learned a lot from that process, and then tendered for the house and foundation build.

 

Once the house was up, I separately tendered for the roofing, then used a mix of my own labour and tradespeople, often on a day rate, to complete the house.  I did pretty much all the internal fit out, plumbing, heat recovery ventilation, heating and cooling system, some of the wiring, kitchen and bathroom fitting, internal joinery etc myself, to keep costs down.  This was OK, but did extend the build time, especially when we ran out of money towards the end, so I ended up only being able to buy materials, or get a chap in to help with the landscaping, from anything I managed to save each month.