Power equipment with no wayleave or easement

[Randomiser]

I apologise for starting another topic on this subject, I know there are others on here which I have read, but I can't find a discussion of the same situation I am in.

 

There is a wooden pole on our plot with what I believe to be a 400v powerline running off it across our plot to another wooden pole just over the boundary on a neighbour's land.  The powerline 'overflies' the existing (derelict) house on the land, albeit over a single storey part of the existing house.  Under the approved plans the replacement house (all two storey) will also sit under the cable.  I contacted the DNO covering the plot and they have replied telling me that there is no record of any legal agreement in place covering the equipment on the plot.  The other threads I have found on here are where there is a wayleave in place.

 

I do not know the exact height that the cable is over the current house, or what it will be over the approved house, but my best estimate is that the cable is little more than (what I understand to be the legal minimum height of) 5.2m above the ground.  I have tried to find if there is a legal minimum clearance over a house for a 400v cable, but can't find anything so far - though I have seen a comment on another thread that in Kent cables can't 'overly' houses, I do not know if they were 400v cables and if this is a local restriction or a national one.  If the cable is at about 5.2m it is only about 1.5m above the single storey section of the existing house, the new house at 7.6m high clearly won't fit under the cable.  At this stage the DNO can not say with certainty that the existing house is going to be demolished, it is perfectly possible that instead of building a new house the existing one could be refurbished.

 

My objective (probably pretty obviously) is to get the cable out of the way of the replacement house at no or the lowest possible cost.  Given all of this, I would be interested in any thoughts anyone has with regard to the best approach to securing either the relocation of the pole or the 'undergrounding' of the cable with the DNO picking up all or at least most of the cost.

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts,

Randomiser.

 

[ProDave]

If there is no wayleave, start by giving them notice to remove their equipment from your land.

 

They will start negotiating.

 

Is it possible to divert it to run along the boundary just by moving a pole or adding a pole?

 

In SSE land, you are not allowed to build within 6 metres of an existing line.

[scottishjohn]

 

get them to send you a copy .

It will be very unusual if there is not one already 

If they have one anything you want them to do will be at your expense 

Edited February 14, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Jeremy Harris]

Pretty common to have no wayleave or easement.  I've experienced this three times in places we've owned, including our present house.  I managed to negotiate with the DNO on the basis that their existing pole and underground cable was crossing our land without authority, and had part of the cost of putting a new pole in place and running overhead cables underground absorbed by them, on the condition that we agree to a wayleave with them.

[Randomiser]

43 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

 

get them to send you a copy .

It will be very unusual if there is not one already 

If they have one anything you want them to do will be at your expense 

I contacted the DNO asking for the details of the wayleave and they have responded that they have no record of one.

[newhome]

Just now, Randomiser said:

I contacted the DNO asking for the details of the wayleave and they have responded that they have no record of one.

 

I would call them again and ask them to come up with a plan that allows you to erect the house as approved in a compliant manner. Do you have an electricity connection yet? If not negotiate a reasonable cost for this as part of the deal if they want to leave the pole on your ground. I wouldn’t go in heavy handed at this stage and ask them to remove it completely but you have that in your back pocket if needs be. @vivienz was able to negotiate a similar thing I believe although her case was quite challenging. It generally pays to play nicely at the beginning but ultimately without a wayleave agreement you should have a lot of leverage. 

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree with the above, about negotiating with the DNO, as it's exactly what we did.  We didn't mind having the pole in the front corner of our plot, and knew that the DNO would have had a real problem if we decided to tell them to just remove it, as it carries a 3 phase supply over our neighbours lake, so couldn't be run underground.  During my discussion with the DNO they confirmed that it's pretty common for there to be no wayleave or easement in place, and I was told by SSE (our DNO) that they believe that many older agreements were lost when the distribution network was privatised; apparently records weren't always transferred and this was compounded by the Land Registry often failing to record agreements that were originally in old sets of deeds and conveyances.

 

In our case I think we got a pretty good deal.  The DNO agreed to move their pole and underground cable that crossed our plot at no charge.  I agreed to pay to have an overhead cable supplying a neighbours house, that was running along the front of our plot, relocated underground, alongside other services that were going in a trench around our plot anyway (I just agreed to pay for the cost of the cable and the alterations to our neighbour's connection).  We also gained easy access to a big supply cable that now feeds our house, which meant that I gained G59/3 approval for up to 12 kWp for any microgeneration we might have (I asked for 6.25 kWp and they volunteered up to 12 kWp).

 

We ended up with no overhead cables crossing our land at all, and a pole in a location in the corner of the plot where it's out of the way, so all around I think things worked out pretty well.  The only problem with the DNO was that they were very, very slow.  We had to pay them upfront in full for the work we'd agreed to, and yet they delayed carrying it out for four months, causing us to delay the build by around a month.

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, Randomiser said:

There is a wooden pole on our plot with what I believe to be a 400v powerline running off it across our plot to another wooden pole.

 

I have tried to find if there is a legal minimum clearance over a house

The first point, you say a 400V line, in the UK this would usually be 3 cables with 415V potential between them running from a pole mounted transformer, but each to earth is 230V, so is it a single line or 3 x 230V cables - in which case the good news is moving them will be a lot easier and the power company will own and operate it. Does that cable then drop down to a dwelling or other building, or is there another transformer? If there is a transformer then the lines above you are probably actually 11,000V and I would not probably want to live under those!

 

As for the regs, check out ENA TS 43-8 that certainly covers high voltage lines but might also cover the sort of transmission lines you are dealing with.

 

 

[Randomiser]

38 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

The first point, you say a 400V line, in the UK this would usually be 3 cables with 415V potential between them running from a pole mounted transformer, but each to earth is 230V, so is it a single line or 3 x 230V cables - in which case the good news is moving them will be a lot easier and the power company will own and operate it. Does that cable then drop down to a dwelling or other building, or is there another transformer? If there is a transformer then the lines above you are probably actually 11,000V and I would not probably want to live under those!

 

As for the regs, check out ENA TS 43-8 that certainly covers high voltage lines but might also cover the sort of transmission lines you are dealing with.

 

 

Does this mean the pole and cables are not owned by the DNO, but by the electricity provider?  The cables go from the pole on our site, to a pole on the neighhour's land and then across the road to another pole where it then starts to connect to properties.  If does not supply the derelict house on pur site, it has no connection at the moment.  If it does not belong to the DNO is there no need for there to be a wayleave?  At the end of the day I am not so worried about the value of the wayleave, only that the ultimate ability to tell them to "get your pole off my land" gives me levergare to have it moved at low or no cost.

 

Thanks in advance,

Randomiser.

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

 

get them to send you a copy .

It will be very unusual if there is not one already 

If they have one anything you want them to do will be at your expense 

 

Not necessarily. But it will tell you the terms on which anything can be done.

 

Mine gave me the right just to give them notice.

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, Randomiser said:

Does this mean the pole and cables are not owned by the DNO, but by the electricity provider?  The cables go from the pole on our site, to a pole on the neighhour's land and then across the road to another pole where it then starts to connect to properties.  If does not supply the derelict house on pur site, it has no connection at the moment.  If it does not belong to the DNO is there no need for there to be a wayleave?  At the end of the day I am not so worried about the value of the wayleave, only that the ultimate ability to tell them to "get your pole off my land" gives me levergare to have it moved at low or no cost.

 

Thanks in advance,

Randomiser.

 

 

The poles and cables up to the meter are owned by the DNO.  The electricity supplier is just an agency that buys electricity and sells it, they don't normally own any of the infrastructure, with the exception of meters.

 

A wayleave or easement is normally required for any equipment that is owned by another entity and which is placed on, over, or under private land.  A landowner may or may not have the right to prohibit the placing of equipment over, on or under their land, depending on the particular circumstances, but utility companies in general (including DNOs) are reluctant to invoke any legal right they may have, as it often results in higher costs for them in getting that legal right imposed.  Getting a wayleave is cheaper, quicker and simpler for them, and generally DNOs won't have the lawful authority to run an LV cable over or under private land, anyway.

[Randomiser]

11 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

The poles and cables up to the meter are owned by the DNO.  The electricity supplier is just an agency that buys electricity and sells it, they don't normally own any of the infrastructure, with the exception of meters.

 

A wayleave or easement is normally required for any equipment that is owned by another entity and which is placed on, over, or under private land.  A landowner may or may not have the right to prohibit the placing of equipment over, on or under their land, depending on the particular circumstances, but utility companies in general (including DNOs) are reluctant to invoke any legal right they may have, as it often results in higher costs for them in getting that legal right imposed.  Getting a wayleave is cheaper, quicker and simpler for them, and generally DNOs won't have the lawful authority to run an LV cable over or under private land, anyway.

OK, that's really helpful.  Thank you everyone.

 

The wayleave team gave me the number of their engineering department, so I think I will give them a call to initiate engagement with them.  As per advice above I'll start by playing nicely.  If things do cut up rough is there any risk that I can be refused an electricity connection?

 

Thanks,

Randomiser.

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, Randomiser said:

If things do cut up rough is there any risk that I can be refused an electricity connection?

 

No, they are obliged to offer you a connection, although they can charge whatever it reasonably costs them to do this.  Their charges are regulated, though, and they can only charge you for work that only they, specifically, can do, so in practice there is almost always scope for negotiation over connection charges.

[newhome]

Be good if you can negotiate the connection as part of this though as if they are doing work to move the pole they may as well put the supply in at the same time. Also it saves a fight later if they move the pole and only then do you request the connection and you don't like the quote. Once the pole is moved they will require you to sign up to some sort of Wayleave agreement (I imagine) so you've then lost your bargaining power. @Christine Walker had a pole on her land and was quoted crazy money for the connection as they claimed that there wasn't enough capacity to just add her supply. So she used the lack of a wayleave agreement to get them to connect it for a lot less money. I'm sure it was more involved than that but that's the upshot in 2 sentences. 

 

[recoveringbuilder]

Before you go asking them to remove it I’d get your quote for a connection. We’ve had a lot of dealings last year with SP energy both with the supply to our new build which they wanted an arm and a leg for; there was a pole in our plot which they had no Wayleave for and from which they said we couldn’t get a supply as it was at capacity, they soon saw sense with their quote though when I told them I would be requesting it’s removal and we ended up paying a fifth of what they had originally quoted on the understanding we’d sign a wayleave for it.

On the other hand we have two plots a mile up the road from us which we have been marketing and two prospective buyers weren’t happy with the fact that in the corner of one of the plots there were two poles with a transformer on them, I made enquiries about having them removed and was told I could request their removal but would be better getting a connection to the plots first as removing them to another location could make a connection afterwards more expensive if they had to move them further away, sounded reasonable to me however we accepted an offer on both plots from an individual who lived abroad and hadn’t physically seen the plots, whatever happened next I don’t know but somehow he then discovered the poles and asked for us to have them removed, I tried to explain that he would be better to get the connection first then ask for their removal but he then said he had contacted them and it was going to cost50k which he wanted us to pay, in other words he wanted two plots valued at 130k for 80k , when we refused he withdrew his offer.

As a footnote to this we recently had cause to visit the plots with another prospective buyer and guess what! Where there had been two poles with a transformer there now was only one solitary pole with only wires coming from it, we don’t know when or how this happened but we’re quite happy with it!

[recoveringbuilder]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

 

get them to send you a copy .

It will be very unusual if there is not one already 

If they have one anything you want them to do will be at your expense 

Wayleaves do not continue when the property changes hands , so if you have recently bought the land even if there was a wayleave with the previous owner it would not continue when you bought the place 

[vivienz]

Definitely get your connection quote first, then you know how hard you need to bargain.

 

My case was resolved to my satisfaction in that the necessary work will be done and it hasn't cost me anything, but then there are no poles on my land for the overflying cables (11kV).  I already had an existing connection that I moved and eventually buried, but the overflying ones were a separate issue.  There was an existing (ancient) wayleave for the wires to overfly the property - these are voluntary agreements given by the landowner and can be withdrawn, so in exchange for the wires being moved further from my garage at no cost to me, I will give them an easement which cannot be withdrawn and is lodged against the title deeds at the Land Registry.

 

One word of caution on times and timing.  If you need to negotiate a new agreement with them, it can take a really long time.  It can also take a long time to get a new connection.  If these wires prevent your developing the land, you need to get onto the electricity issue as soon as possible.

[scottishjohn]

23 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

Wayleaves do not continue when the property changes hands , so if you have recently bought the land even if there was a wayleave with the previous owner it would not continue when you bought the place 

I will check that tomorrow as i,m in the process of buying land with poles on .

not that they are a problem 

 cannot understand DNO not including the usual phrase "and or successors"-which means it would be binding on the next owner

[vivienz]

I thought that wayleaves do stay with the property when it changes hands. When we purchased our plot, our solicitor made us aware of it as it is noted on the deeds. They are still voluntary, though, and can be withdrawn by any new owner, unlike an easement.

[Randomiser]

Thanks for the additional advice, it makes a lot of sense to get the connection dealt with at the same time.  We are at an early stage, so hopefully will not cause a big delay if I get on to it now.

 

Randomiser.

[recoveringbuilder]

Wayleaves are not noted on the deeds @vivienz but easements are, was told this when I made the enquiry about removing the poles on our plots 

[recoveringbuilder]

Wayleaves. A Wayleave is a means of providing rights for a company to install and retain their cabling or piping across private land in return for annual payments to the landowner. A Wayleave is normally a temporary arrangement and does not automatically transfer to a new owner or occupier.

[vivienz]

2 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

Wayleaves are not noted on the deeds @vivienz but easements are, was told this when I made the enquiry about removing the poles on our plots 

 

I wonder if it's the north/south thing? The wayleave for my place is on the deeds for my plot,

[recoveringbuilder]

asements

An Easement (also known as Deed of Grant) provides similar access rights for installing and maintaining infrastructure equipment, but for a one-off payment and it provides permanent access. An Easement can also be registered at the Land Registry in order to ensure that future owners of the land adhere to it.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

20 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

asements

An Easement (also known as Deed of Grant) provides similar access rights for installing and maintaining infrastructure equipment, but for a one-off payment and it provides permanent access. An Easement can also be registered at the Land Registry in order to ensure that future owners of the land adhere to it.

 

 

 

That fits exactly with the conversations I had with our DNO about the pole and cables crossing our plot.  There was nothing recorded at the Land Registry and the DNO's view was that the original wayleave hadn't been carried over to either us, or the chap we bought the plot from (who wasn't even aware of the big underground cable crossing the plot).