No deal Brexit impact

[ToughButterCup]

5 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

...

I am far from uneducated, it baffles me why remainers assume (or like to kid themselves) we are?‍♂️

 

I am a remainer. I have never or will ever regard leavers as uneducated.

 

But I am shocked at the level of vitriol, and saddened at the very poor quality of thinking behind many of the points made.

Logical Fallacies (both formal and informal) are common on both sides of the argument. But one simple fact: that leavers won the election remains and must be respected.

Its not to my liking, but that's tough.

 

I used to train people to think logically.

It's fantastically rewarding watching students (of any age) start to analyse text and speech. And slowly realise that respectful skepticism is a pre-requisite for analysing complex issues.

The Brexit issue surely deserves that much respect. More honoured in the breach, it seems.

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Because, when people say 'the majority voted to leave', it is not true.  All that happened is the majority of people who bothered to vote, got the mandate. But you cannot truly govern without consent, and I don't think there is consent on leaving Europe.

but that is true of all voting, elections etc, it can only be different if voting was compulsory .

[joe90]

1 minute ago, ToughButterCup said:

But one simple fact: that leavers won the election remains and must be respected.

Its not to my liking, but that's tough.

Well said, ?

[daiking]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Because, when people say 'the majority voted to leave', it is not true.  All that happened is the majority of people who bothered to vote, got the mandate. But you cannot truly govern without consent, and I don't think there is consent on leaving Europe.

Was what? You say you are not niece, but where are your reasons, and the policies you agree with.

You're definitely trolling now. Where was the consent for continued EU integration? 

 

The EU is framed as a stable consistent organisation and membership (Remain) as a continuation of what we already have but this is a complete misrepresentation. The EU has moved away from the Common Market to something more involved and will continue to do so. No consent for that and a vote for remain would have been twisted into mandate for as much integration as the like of Cameron/Osbourne/Labour and Lib Dem no marks thought would benefit them and to hell with the proles.

[ToughButterCup]

@SteamyTea a Troll?  Nahhh. He's the grit in yer oyster. Makes us all think just a little bit more. Very useful.

[SteamyTea]

17 minutes ago, joe90 said:

that is true of all voting, elections etc, it can only be different if voting was compulsory

Yes. It is a problem with the electorial system. I did suggest an alternative system, but no one had taken me up on it.

In our usual system, we can elect a government with less than 50% if votes cast. Same in US, how they got Trump and not Clinton.

Edited December 8, 2020 by SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, daiking said:

Where was the consent for continued EU integration? 

The EU parliamentary elections.

How Farage got there.

[daiking]

1 minute ago, ToughButterCup said:

@SteamyTea a Troll?  Nahhh. He's the grit in yer oyster. Makes us all think just a little bit more. Very useful.

 

Where is the respectful skepticism in analysing the complex issue of continued European integration via the EU and how to act when given a binary choice on your position?

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

He's the grit in yer oyster.

Covered in grit at moment

[Ferdinand]

..

[daiking]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

The EU parliamentary elections.

How Farage got there.

 

 First class 

 

A minute ago you're telling us that the referendum was not won by leave because of non-voters didn't give consent

 

Yet these miserable voter turnouts in the UK for European elections gives consent? (completely ignoring the non-voters who presumably didn't give consent either?)

 

bravo. 

 

 

[Simtronic]

I think the EU want a deal more than we need it, and not just for the fishing rights being offered. They will try to make it seem like we have no chance of a deal until the last. Then make an offer we should just find acceptable. They are trying hard to make it seem a nightmare for any country that might have the gumption to leave. If we wanted a better deal we would have to show we are happy to walk away without one. I hope we do get one as it will make things much easier in the short term I just hope we don't give away too much. If we don't get a deal it will take a while to settle down, there will be problems for the government and many companies but we will benefit in the end. I think the EU would then offer us a much better deal once they see we are managing without them. 

The majority of those who bothered to vote voted to leave, if you didn't vote, you have no say and shouldn't moan about the outcome. If you voted to remain sorry democracy won. If you voted to leave be prepared for the hopefully temporary  problems of no deal.

 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, daiking said:

Yet these miserable voter turnouts in the UK for European elections gives consent

And that is the problem.

If we, as a nation, don't vote, we can't have influence.

I think that deep down, the British voter thinks their vote counts for nothing 

That needs to change.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Simtronic said:

The majority of those who bothered to vote voted to leave, if you didn't vote, you have no say and shouldn't moan about the outcome. If you voted to remain sorry democracy won. If you voted to leave be prepared for the hopefully temporary  problems of no deal

So you don't have a problem with unrepresentative democracy then.

That's fair, but I do have a problem with it.

[daiking]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

And that is the problem.

If we, as a nation, don't vote, we can't have influence.

I think that deep down, the British voter thinks their vote counts for nothing 

That needs to change.

 

 Like some people trying to cancel out 17 millions votes? 

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, daiking said:

 

Where is the respectful skepticism in analysing the complex issue of continued European integration via the EU and how to act when given a binary choice on your position?

 

You ask: where? A useful starting point is always to examine the underlying assumptions in any statement.

 

In any discussion, a really excellent way of doing that would be  (well, is ) to explain  the argument put by the other side - while the proponent of that argument listens, respectfully.

If done carefully, and in a suitably safe, supported environment , sometimes such discussion starts a thinking process which  - over time - can lead to disciplined, respectful dialogue. One where no matter how poorly the point is made (definist fallacy ) or by whom (ad hominem fallacy) , the point made is treated with respect.

 

Naming people - and so implicitly criticising them - rather ignoring the name and referring to the point they made is a common trap.

Sometimes called Playing the Man Not the Ball. 

[daiking]

Just now, ToughButterCup said:

 

You ask: where? A useful starting point is always to examine the underlying assumptions in any statement.

 

In any discussion, a really excellent way of doing that would be  (well, is ) to explain  the argument put by the other side - while the proponent of that argument listens, respectfully.

If done carefully, and in a suitably safe, supported environment , sometimes such discussion starts a thinking process which  - over time - can lead to disciplined, respectful dialogue. One where no matter how poorly the point is made (definist fallacy ) or by whom (ad hominem fallacy) , the point made is treated with respect.

 

Naming people - and so implicitly criticising them - rather ignoring the name and referring to the point they made is a common trap.

Sometimes called Playing the Man Not the Ball. 

 

I'm playing the man who has lost sight of the ball. 

[ToughButterCup]

Just now, daiking said:

 

I'm playing the man who has lost sight of the ball. 

 

... and thus emplying an ad hominem fallacy on an unsighted subject. 

[Simtronic]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

So you don't have a problem with unrepresentative democracy then.

That's fair, but I do have a problem with it.

I think we all should have a problem with it, but democracy in this country is what it is and I think I would rather that than the alternatives. 

Too many people have no idea or care and that leaves room for minorities to have a bigger say 

[daiking]

2 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

... and thus emplying an ad hominem fallacy on an unsighted subject. 

I'm not proud of it but it needs pointing out in big neon lights. 

[SteamyTea]

Can someone explain, why, after the event, claiming that being on the winning side, is justification for the decisions they made.

 

I was a bit drunk once and ran over a cat, my girlfriend said 'I knew that would happen'.

How could she have know? It is a bollocks justification.

 

And, why do leavers not change their minds and think they made a mistake.

I like Gary Glitter when I was young. Still hum along to his tunes.

But not allowed to claim he made a major contribution to British culture. 

 

 

[Simtronic]

I am sure there are people that do regret or worry about  having voted to leave they probably don't want to advertise it though. 

I have no regrets yet, but it is a leap of faith. I might live to regret it. 

I liked Garys tunes but never knew who he was, now I know what I know I think he is despicable. 

As for the cat ... at least it was just a cat! and I like cats

[ProDave]

5 hours ago, LA3222 said:

The biggest issue in all of this is the lies that politicians peddle, surely they should be legally obligated to accurately present their arguments/manifestos. Not a single one of them is honest and how can they be. If Bill and Mary are peddling lies about your ideas and false promises with their own, the only way you can 'win' voters is to play the same game - being 'honest' would be the death knell for your political ambitions.

 

A reminder of what we were promised (and how it looks like it will turn out) 

 

Before you are quick to blame Brexit voters for destroying the country, take a look at what many politicians promied us would happen, that we could keep free trade etc.

 

It now looks like those promises are not going to happen.  the question should be why not?  Were we promised something that was impossible (lied to)?  Or did the people negotiating or deal not actually want a deal (we were lied to in a different way)?

 

The result of all of this, (quite apart from the fact Brexit looks to be very damaging) is we are now ruled by a party that told us a bunch of lies,  are going to deliver something very different to what we were promised, and yet nobody seems particularly bothered by that fact.

 

It SHOULD both worry and anger you the depths that UK politics has sunk to, where the ruling party can promise any old rubbish they like, deliver something VERY different and very worse, we don't (or didn't last year) have an electable opposition, and scarcely anyone seems bothered by the dire state that UK politics is in.

 

 

[Simtronic]

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

A reminder of what we were promised (and how it looks like it will turn out) 

 

Before you are quick to blame Brexit voters for destroying the country, take a look at what many politicians promied us would happen, that we could keep free trade etc.

 

It now looks like those promises are not going to happen.  the question should be why not?  Were we promised something that was impossible (lied to)?  Or did the people negotiating or deal not actually want a deal (we were lied to in a different way)?

 

The result of all of this, (quite apart from the fact Brexit looks to be very damaging) is we are now ruled by a party that told us a bunch of lies,  are going to deliver something very different to what we were promised, and yet nobody seems particularly bothered by that fact.

 

It SHOULD both worry and anger you the depths that UK politics has sunk to, where the ruling party can promise any old rubbish they like, deliver something VERY different and very worse, we don't (or didn't last year) have an electable opposition, and scarcely anyone seems bothered by the dire state that UK politics is in.

 

 

Some of those things may of been goals I saw no promises. 

1 Never promised or expected out of our hands. Who knows we may get a deal now or later

2 They will and have offers already

3 More has been put into NHS though Covid had a big influence in that

4 No border acceptable it is the EU that is insisting on it

5 None given up by us they may be restricted by EU yet

6 I am sure that is the intention

7 Intention is to protect it from others

8 True and to a wider field without EU restrictions

9 Intended date partially achieved

10 Having control means it is our choice, and we do need some immigration

 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Simtronic said:

Some of those things may of been goals I saw no promises. 

Just taking the "The Government's Brexit Contract with the British People" at face value.

Are you saying that all contracts can now be broken, quick way to pay of a mortgage, or get out of a marriage.

 

I still think that remainers where more realistic and could see the downfalls.