How to save money on a notice under article 13: the ad in a local paper?

[Gav_P]

Possibly the site has to include all land necessary to carry out the development, this includes access to the a public highway?

 

i think it varies from LA to LA.

[Dee J]

Hmmm. On our potential plot there was 3 foot of land between the plot and the road that 'nobody' owned. . Even though it was a historic gateway into the garden plot. We could get indemnity for access over the strip, but not for services under the strip. That's what made us pull out. The plot still hasn't sold.

[recoveringbuilder]

When we did our pp application and had to do the advert in the local paper the only house within the need to notify area was ours so we duly received a letter from the council informing us that we had made an application!

[Dreadnaught]

6 minutes ago, Gav_P said:

Possibly the site has to include all land necessary to carry out the development, this includes access to the a public highway?

  

 i think it varies from LA to LA.

 

Ah could be. I think I am going to ask and report back.

 

1 minute ago, Dee J said:

Hmmm. On our potential plot there was 3 foot of land between the plot and the road that 'nobody' owned. . Even though it was a historic gateway into the garden plot. We could get indemnity for access over the strip, but not for services under the strip. That's what made us pull out. The plot still hasn't sold.

 

Fortunately I think my situation is different. The road in question, the "nobody road", has every service under-the-sun already beneath it. And there are a range of boathouses and one other neighbouring private dwelling that all use the road for both vehicular and foot access and as the source of their subterranean services. Notwithstanding all of this, the road is unadopted and the owner is lost in the mists of time (or into @vivienz's black holes), all of the aforementioned neighbours confirm this.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Dreadnaught said:

Notwithstanding all of this, the road is unadopted and the owner is lost in the mists of time (or into @vivienz's black holes), all of the aforementioned neighbours confirm this.

  

 

Tbh things like this are never “lost”, they are forgotten for a reason ... roads being unadopted are sometimes that way because the owner doesn’t want to be saddled with the bills for maintenance and potentially insurance so they quietly forget they own them. 

 

I would point the council at the last PP and state that as nobody claimed it, and you’re not building on it, it’s irrelevant to your application. 

[Ferdinand]

11 hours ago, Dreadnaught said:

No, you are right. In my case, access from the public highway to my plot is along an unadopted road owned (as all the neighbours agree) by nobody. Hence I have to advertise so that nobody can come forward and say they own that road.

 

Surely you have to advertise it so that somebody can come forward say they own the road. 

 

The biggest problem with these afaik are that when someone misbehaves (eg parking on it) no one can enforce as only the owner has the legal right.

 

I wonder if anyone goes around answering these in the affirmative for the devilment of it ? ? It would be quite like trolling wedding services objecting at the "does anyone know just cause or impediment..." moment. 

 

In the UK - certainly EW - everywhere *is* owned by somebody. The legal system is designed to maximise land usage, which is iirc why we have the possibility of nicking it by unopposed occupation.

 

9 hours ago, PeterW said:

Sorry but you can’t claim planning permission over an unknown plot of land, and include it in your permission ... 

 

I thought you could do just that, but that PP gives to right to implement the PP. And that there were stronger information requirements (ie serve notice) as of about 15(?) years ago. One issue is that people assume PP overrules others' legal rights.

 

F

[Dreadnaught]

I spoke with the planner this morning about including the access road within the red-line-bound area of the area plan, which gives rise to my need to post an advert in a local newspaper. She pointed me to the planning portal guidelines, which read (my emphasis): "The application site must be edged clearly with a red line on the location plan. It should include all land necessary to carry out the proposed development (e.g. land required for access to the site from a public highway [ ) ]".

 

As @Gav_P suggested earlier, it is that last part in parenthesis that catches me it seems: the access road forms part of the "application site".

 

Ah well! I guess it is time for me to subsidise the local-newspaper sector.

[Dreadnaught]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Surely you have to advertise it so that somebody can come forward say they own the road. 

 

 

Yes, quite right. I shouldn't play with words.

 

2 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

The biggest problem with these afaik are that when someone misbehaves (eg parking on it) no one can enforce as only the owner has the legal right.

 

 

Very true. That probably explains why my neighbour is as fierce as a fire-breathing dragon towards miscreants? (and sometimes me).

[Dreadnaught]

After the Christmas hiatus, I am finally getting around to placing the newspaper ad. To my pleasant surprise, the cost has dropped by a third since before Christmas. Unexpected but welcome.

[Ferdinand]

On 05/12/2018 at 10:14, Dreadnaught said:

 

Yes, quite right. I shouldn't play with words.

 

 

Very true. That probably explains why my neighbour is as fierce as a fire-breathing dragon towards miscreants? (and sometimes me).

 

Equally that means that if you do or the immediate people by agreement do something, then no one can enforce on you either.

 

F

Edited January 3, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ChrisW]

Found out today after 2 pre apps and numerous discussions with the council that we are in the same position. Our nobody road has been nobody's for over 40 years and everyone knows its nobody's…. We are lucky that our advert will only cost @£150 though. I am going to try and prove that nobody owns  the nobody road as the land has never been registered with land registry so am punting £35 for an online title check. Must admit there is always the possibility that our nobody road was purchased or acquired by right before registering came into force in which case it will be somebody's and everyone will have been under a false illusion for 40 years. so I can see the benefit of the paper add, not that people look at the notices.

Light-heartedness aside it will give us reassurance to know that either nobody or somebody owns the road and remove the potential for speculative claims by anyone, fingers crossed.

[ChrisW]

This will teach me to be flippant, the nobody road we thought no body owned is actually owned by 2 people!!.

If this is better to be placed as either a new thread or in another section I would be happy for admins to move it as necessary @AdminSo my question is does this ownership create a ransom strip or not? I can give a bit of back ground to help any possible answers.

Use of the road and access to houses and land off it has been freely available to all households since at least 1974, this is the date my in laws bought the house so one must assume access rights pre existed this date. The in laws had made enquiries to establish ownership including a potential landowner about 20 years ago but everything drew a blank, (not sure if this was done by a solicitor or letters they wrote, my suspicion is the latter though. The road/lane is L shaped running off a main road, the inlaws own the long part of the L leading to their house and 4 other houses and the short section linking to the main road is owned by 2 others and this has another 4 houses on it.

The search I did yesterday shows the short section of the L was bought in 2002 (from the landowner who denied ownership) and a small section of it was later sold in 2004.

 

Would clear unobstructed use for years on end prevent it being used as a ransom strip or are we in for a bit of a struggle. I am kicking myself for not checking this out much earlier but the inlaws have been spot on up to now. Solicitor appointment is on the cards to establish a clear way forward.

 

Any suggestions and ideas welcomed

 

 

Chris

Edited January 4, 2019 by ChrisW
incluson of admin in case a better thread more suitable

[Temp]

Check out...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easements-claimed-by-prescription/practice-guide-52-easements-claimed-by-prescription

 

Note that to claim an access right they must have used it without permission for 20 year. The without permission part might be important. 

 

This example is in plain English..

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/property/advice/propertyclinic/8568033/Property-advice-Right-of-way.html

 

Bear in mind that just because you may have established a right of access doesn't mean you can run new services.

 

Good solicitor required.

[Ferdinand]

13 hours ago, ChrisW said:

This will teach me to be flippant, the nobody road we thought no body owned is actually owned by 2 people!!.

If this is better to be placed as either a new thread or in another section I would be happy for admins to move it as necessary @AdminSo my question is does this ownership create a ransom strip or not? I can give a bit of back ground to help any possible answers.

Use of the road and access to houses and land off it has been freely available to all households since at least 1974, this is the date my in laws bought the house so one must assume access rights pre existed this date. The in laws had made enquiries to establish ownership including a potential landowner about 20 years ago but everything drew a blank, (not sure if this was done by a solicitor or letters they wrote, my suspicion is the latter though. The road/lane is L shaped running off a main road, the inlaws own the long part of the L leading to their house and 4 other houses and the short section linking to the main road is owned by 2 others and this has another 4 houses on it.

The search I did yesterday shows the short section of the L was bought in 2002 (from the landowner who denied ownership) and a small section of it was later sold in 2004.

 

Would clear unobstructed use for years on end prevent it being used as a ransom strip or are we in for a bit of a struggle. I am kicking myself for not checking this out much earlier but the inlaws have been spot on up to now. Solicitor appointment is on the cards to establish a clear way forward.

 

Any suggestions and ideas welcomed

 

 

Chris

 

It would be useful to know more about your plot, but...

 

if the plot is a subdivision of land which has had access unrestricted for 20 years, then you should be OK if you can prove it, as access rights would run with the land.

 

Equally if it is a separate plot which has also had the same access,  then you should be OK.

 

But you need to be prepared in case a poleaxe emerges from somewhere, such as a permission letter from the owner acknowledged by the previous owner.

 

ideally you want a couple of signed Statements of Truth from long term residents or previous owners in your filing cabinets eady to be revealed to whoever makes a fuss. If you are building in your in-laws former garden then a statement from someone who is outside the family would help.

 

On the services, I am not sure what rights are inherited, or what you can run as sub services from your inlaws. I would love to know on that. Also, providers may have some rights to run services for a new dwelling, but may not wish to use them.

 

F

Edited January 5, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ChrisW]

Thanks for the comments @Ferdinand & @Temp I will post a sketch of the site later when I am back but it is heartening to hear positive thoughts. We are going to try and get legal advice booked in next week hopefully. I think I may well put a hold on the planning application until I am certain we wont have any problems as I have another access route that may be possible. It would cost a bit as a strip of land would need to be bought from a neighbour in another direction and we would need to talk to the planners again about access.

 Ref getting the services to site, they would all reach our bit of the garden through the inlaws garden so the lane would only be used for vehicle access.

 

Will post more later

 

Chris