Permitted Development before house completion?

[Visti]

So we failed to provision for a shed during our planning application, instead including a 20ft container due to time pressures... Turns out, we've been largely caught up in other paperwork since then so the haste was for naught. 

 

We've determined to build our own shed to use for welfare during the 2 yr build, which we hope to transition into a outhouse + garden tool storage after the build is done. I'm confident we can do the foundation, walls and roof well enough ourselves for about £2k all in

 

I've checked all the requirements at the planning portal for Class E (detached outbuildings) and can ensure we meet them. I've also ensured that Graven Hill (the Local Development Order) also provisions for permitted development. 

 

However, I've read many places (particularly on this forum) that PD isn't valid until AFTER the completion of one's build, though I can't confirm this formally anywhere else.

 

Can anyone help clarify whether I need to submit for an update to my planning certificate, or whether I can go ahead under standard PD rules?

[Jeremy Harris]

That's right, you only get PD rights after a completion certificate has been issued, normally, or unless the planners consider that the house is complete (for the case where a completion certificate is delayed - essentially similar requirements to the point where the LA will want to start to charge you Council Tax).

[Ed Davies]

55 minutes ago, Visti said:

However, I've read many places (particularly on this forum) that PD isn't valid until AFTER the completion of one's build, though I can't confirm this formally anywhere else.

 

I think it's just that the relevant permitted development rights apply to a “dwellinghouse”. (Class E in http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/made). The Interpretation section (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/article/2/made) isn't overly helpful here but presumably a house isn't a “dwellinghouse” until you can dwell in it, which you shouldn't until you've got a completion certificate.

 

Had this discussion with a planning officer on Orkney saying I might or might not want a wind turbine but it'd be PD anyway. Her reply: not until you're complete, better to put it in the application from the start.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Ed Davies

[ProDave]

I had this "discussion" regarding our static caravan. I wanted to keep it permanently as a work space / studio.  When I pointed out that on the day of completion I could remove it from the site, and immediately replace an identical 'van in an identical location under permitted development as a garden outbuilding, they agreed it could remain without me having to do that.

 

In your case I would just build the shed. The VERY worst that can happen is after completion you would have to dismantle it, then put it back as a permitted development garden building.

[newhome]

I would just build it too. We built the garage here before the house was signed off. The busy body community council complained to the main council (as they complained about the 2 houses here constantly for 3 years). It is at the back of the plot and barely visible from the road! ? Anyway the main council told them it was allowed under permitted development and the house most certainly wasn’t signed off at that point! 

 

 

[Visti]

It is tempting to just go ahead and point out that it'd be covered by PD following completion anyway.

 

Only issue, and this is one that plagues me a lot, is Graven Hill. We may have to apply for a 'Temporary Structure' if it isn't on the planning permission drawings.

 

So really, it comes down to whichever is cheaper. The cost of updating the PP, or of just submitting to GH... sigh.

 

Thanks for the clarifications though!

[CC45]

check that your PD rights were removed during planning ........ ours weren't.

 

[Visti]

1 hour ago, CC45 said:

check that your PD rights were removed during planning ........ ours weren't.

 

Nothing states that they were removed, and the LDO has PD included... Can one just assume it to be in place?

[Mr Punter]

The PD rights can also be removed via an Article 4 direction by the LPA which can cover lots of properties but normally in conservation areas etc.

[Stones]

Permitted Development rights apply to a number of different things as set out in The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015

 

This should be of use to you:

PART 4 Temporary buildings and uses

Class A – temporary buildings and structures

Permitted development

A.  The provision on land of buildings, moveable structures, works, plant or machinery required temporarily in connection with and for the duration of operations being or to be carried out on, in, under or over that land or on land adjoining that land.

 

 

[newhome]

12 minutes ago, Stones said:

Permitted Development rights apply to a number of different things as set out in The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015

 

 

Is it right that you only get PD rights after a house is complete though for permanent structures? 

[Jeremy Harris]

41 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

Is it right that you only get PD rights after a house is complete though for permanent structures? 

 

Normally, yes, as PD rights for permanent structures is tied to their being a completed building that, in effect "owns" those PD rights.  Temporary structures are different in that their rights aren't "owned" by any structure.  You can have PD rights, for example, to erect a polytunnel-type aircraft hangar in a field, something that a lot of small aeroplane owners take advantage of. 

 

They are subject to a different set of rules regarding change of use for the land, the "28 day rule", which isn't relevant to the temporary building erected under PD rights, but does mean they can only use the land as an airfield for 28 days in any 12 month period.  The classic way around this is for a group to get together and buy a field and divide it into separately owned strips.  They can then spread their use around amongst the several differently owned strips and so get a whole years worth of flying out it, as long a no single strip is used for more than 28 days in any 12 months.

[Ed Davies]

36 minutes ago, newhome said:

Is it right that you only get PD rights after a house is complete though for permanent structures? 

Indeed. So right up to the moment the completion certificate is signed the shed would be a temporary structure needed for the build. At the exact picosecond the completion certificate is signed it becomes a permanent structure under the PD for the dwellinghouse.

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, Ed Davies said:

Indeed. So right up to the moment the completion certificate is signed the shed would be a temporary structure needed for the build. At the exact picosecond the completion certificate is signed it becomes a permanent structure under the PD for the dwellinghouse.

The fly in the ointment there, is as I understand it, you cannot erect a permitted development building until completion day.

 

So you could be in the hypothetical situation I might have faced.  I wanted to keep our static caravan after the build. But to be "by the book" I would have to remove it on completion day, and then put an identical caravan back in the identical position for it to be a permitted development garden building.  When I put this scenario to the planners, they allowed PP for the 'van to remain (but not for habitational use after the house was complete)

 

It is highly unlikely anyone is going to raise a fuss over a garden shed though.

[newhome]

If you add a structure not attached to the main house under PD, say a garage, do you have to inform anyone? 

[Ed Davies]

Not normally but it depends a bit on which PD right is involved. Some (e.g, in Scotland for a wind turbine) require you to get a Certificate of Lawful Permitted Development (CLPD). You can get a CLPD for any PD if you want to, e.g., if it's close to the edge of what's allowed or if you think a neighbour's likely to be snotty about it. Cost is about £70 (or, at least, it was in Highland and Orkney a couple of years ago).

Edited September 3, 2018 by Ed Davies

[Ed Davies]

31 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The fly in the ointment there, is as I understand it, you cannot erect a permitted development building until completion day.

Yes, did wonder about that. Still, maybe the “permitted development” is the conversion from a site hut to a garden shed consisting of taking the kettle out and putting a broken flower pot in the  back corner ?

 

Of course, they could say the house isn't complete until the temporary building has been removed. Fortunately, that's a planning issue, not a building control issue, so isn't likely to affect the issuing of a completion certificate, I'd imagine.

[Ferdinand]

6 hours ago, newhome said:

If you add a structure not attached to the main house under PD, say a garage, do you have to inform anyone? 

 

 

It all depends ... probably best to refer to the Interactive House on the Planning Portal, or a similar source in Scotland or NI.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ed Davies]

On 03/09/2018 at 22:52, newhome said:

If you add a structure not attached to the main house under PD, say a garage, do you have to inform anyone? 

For completeness it's worth noting that even if something is PD it might still need building regs approval. E.g., I think this would apply to some sizes of garage if they have toilet in them, but I've not taken much interest in the details. Also if there's electricity involved in any quantity that'll have to be signed off, of course.

[newhome]

Yes and of course a small extension under PD will require building regs approval. 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole