Both FIT AND export payments to be cancelled next year

[Jeremy Harris]

The government seem to have given a boost to small scale battery storage, as they've announced that not only are they scrapping the FIT subsidy next year, but they are also not going to allow microgenerators to be paid anything for any electricity they export to the grid.

 

So, if looking to fit PV, then several things become paramount.  The first is to maximise self use, which may lead to the adoption of East/West arrays, or even flat arrays, more useful than South facing arrays.  Secondly, not fitting a PV diverter system to heat hot water with excess generation would be daft; it becomes essential to try and use as much electricity you generate as possible, as there is no merit in giving the power companies a free subsidy with energy they don't have to pay for.

 

Finally, with the price of battery systems dropping, this move may well swing the balance to make home storage more attractive.  Losing e few pence for every unit exported to the grid effectively increases the return on any battery system.  That could make all the difference in terms of cost effectiveness.

 

[Dreadnaught]

What are the all PV fitters, used as they are to grabbing the FIT benefit from the customer, now to do?

[Ferdinand]

21 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

What are the all PV fitters, used as they are to grabbing the FIT benefit from the customer, now to do?

 

Something else. They already all shifted their business models 2 years ago, or got out.

 

The one that did mine now does much more on battery systems, for example.

 

There also opportunities in energy saving consultancy, I think.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

 I wonder if this will lead to DIY systems becoming more widely for sale, and at a cheaper price?

[Jeremy Harris]

There are already signs of DIY system prices coming down, especially battery systems.  I'm seriously considering a battery system, most probably a 9.6 kWh Sofar system for around £4,500 inc VAT and delivery.

[vivienz]

So, even if you have a system installed before the cancellation date, they are not going to make any future FIT payments to anyone, i.e. the whole lot ceases?

 

My understanding was that the payments continue for the agreed period as long as you are up and running before the cut-off date - has this changed?

 

Edit - just read details on the net; all understood now.  Self-use is undoubtedly the way to go.

Edited July 19, 2018 by vivienz

[Ferdinand]

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 I wonder if this will lead to DIY systems becoming more widely for sale, and at a cheaper price?

 

Plus professionally installed not connected systems.

[Jeremy Harris]

Just checked and the price of the Sofar 9.6 kWh system has dropped again to £3,858 inc VAT and delivery. This is a system that includes a 3 kW backup supply outlet in the event of power cuts, and one where the price seems to be dropping very regularly.

[PeterW]

Info here Ofgem FIT closure

[vivienz]

15 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Just checked and the price of the Sofar 9.6 kWh system has dropped again to £3,858 inc VAT and delivery.  This is a system that includes a 3 kW backup supply outlet in the event of power cuts,and one where the price seems to be dropping very regularly.

 

Oh, that's very interesting.  I shall have to look into this further.  As ever, thanks, Jeremy.

[Ferdinand]

12 hours ago, JSHarris said:

There are already signs of DIY system prices coming down, especially battery systems.  I'm seriously considering a battery system, most probably a 9.6 kWh Sofar system for around £4,500 inc VAT and delivery.

 

@JSHarris Does that mean your gorgeous sunny retaining wall has just been reallocated from grapevines or strawberries to solar? ?

 

I make 9.6kWp to be about 65 sqm, which is a lot.

 

I don’t know where I would put a further system on my plot.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Does that mean your gorgeous sunny retaining wall has just been reallocated from grapevines or strawberries to solar? ?

 

I make 9.6kWp to be about 65 sqm, which is a lot.

 

 

 

No, it's not more solar, we have more than enough, the Sofar is an inverter and battery storage system with a capacity of 9.6 kWh.  It's not that large and I made provision to install a storage system when we built the house, so there is a base for a slim cabinet with a conduit leading to it plus two runs of SWA running close by.  I've just been waiting for the price of battery storage to drop, and it seems to be almost falling like a stone.  It's only a few months since a 4 kWh battery system would have cost well over £4k, and now we have 9.6 kWh for less than half that.

 

It's still marginal in terms of return on investment at today's electricity prices, but close to the break-even point.  Add in the ability to have up to 3 kW available via a back-up connection during power cuts and the convenience value that adds, and it's starting to look tempting.  Another thing in it's favour is that it would remove short periods of import during the day, when the house or car charging load exceeds the generated power from the PV.  Hard to factor in what that's worth, but at a guess I'd say perhaps 10% or so.

 

The biggest advantage is that a system like this practically removes the need to monitor generation and only switch loads, like the washing machine, on when the PV is generating more than  enough power to run it.  The battery system would even things out on days with sun and clouds, so loads like this could run without the need for sporadic import.

 

 

[Dreadnaught]

7 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Add in the ability to have up to 3 kW available via a back-up connection during power cuts

 

I was under the impression that the use of backup batteries during a power cut was prohibited to protect power-line workers. Has the situation changed? Or would your system be isolated from the grid? Or perhaps I was just mistaken.

[Jeremy Harris]

7 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

 

I was under the impression that the use of backup batteries during a power cut was prohibited to protect power-line workers. Has the situation changed? Or would your system be isolated from the grid? Or perhaps I was just mistaken.

 

It is, you have to fit a changeover switch, but that's pretty easy.  In the specific case of the Sofar system with the Pylontech battery packs, it has two 230 VAC outputs, one is grid tied and complies with G83/2, so turns off when the grid tie is lost.  The other remains up and can be connected to power-critical systems, so the system works like an uninterruptible power supply.

 

In practice, what I'd do is take the feed to the circuits I want to remain on when the grid fails out of the main CU to an auxiliary CU that is connected to an automatic changeover switch.  That way, when the grid goes down those circuits just switch over to being run from the battery pack inverter.

 

This is the same way that generator back up systems are connected, and the automatic changeover switch would be a standard generator backup one.

[Dreadnaught]

7 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

the circuits I want to remain on when the grid fails out

 

Out of interest, what might those typically be?

[Ferdinand]

29 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

No, it's not more solar, we have more than enough, the Sofar is an inverter and battery storage system with a capacity of 9.6 kWh.  It's not that large and I made provision to install a storage system when we built the house, so there is a base for a slim cabinet with a conduit leading to it plus two runs of SWA running close by.  I've just been waiting for the price of battery storage to drop, and it seems to be almost falling like a stone.  It's only a few months since a 4 kWh battery system would have cost well over £4k, and now we have 9.6 kWh for less than half that.

 

It's still marginal in terms of return on investment at today's electricity prices, but close to the break-even point.  Add in the ability to have up to 3 kW available via a back-up connection during power cuts and the convenience value that adds, and it's starting to look tempting.  Another thing in it's favour is that it would remove short periods of import during the day, when the house or car charging load exceeds the generated power from the PV.  Hard to factor in what that's worth, but at a guess I'd say perhaps 10% or so.

 

The biggest advantage is that a system like this practically removes the need to monitor generation and only switch loads, like the washing machine, on when the PV is generating more than  enough power to run it.  The battery system would even things out on days with sun and clouds, so loads like this could run without the need for sporadic import.

 

 

 

Thanks for the quick correction.

 

I just twigged and was editing out the thickitude from my post. ?

 

4 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

 

Out of interest, what might those typically be?

 

Light, heat, services eg boiler and sewage plant if fitted, sufficient cooking, sufficient water heating in case of gas loss, and selected mains sockets.

 

PS And the cat shocker.

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[newhome]

12 hours ago, JSHarris said:

 

Just checked and the price of the Sofar 9.6 kWh system has dropped again to £3,858 inc VAT and delivery.

 

 

Where is this from please? I couldn’t see it for that price. My brother is looking at the Tesla Powerwall. Does this do the same thing? 

[Ferdinand]

32 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

It is, you have to fit a changeover switch, but that's pretty easy.  In the specific case of the Sofar system with the Pylontech battery packs, it has two 230 VAC outputs, one is grid tied and complies with G83/2, so turns off when the grid tie is lost.  The other remains up and can be connected to power-critical systems, so the system works like an uninterruptible power supply.

 

In practice, what I'd do is take the feed to the circuits I want to remain on when the grid fails out of the main CU to an auxiliary CU that is connected to an automatic changeover switch.  That way, when the grid goes down those circuits just switch over to being run from the battery pack inverter.

 

This is the same way that generator back up systems are connected, and the automatic changeover switch would be a standard generator backup one.

 

This might be of serious interest to me, since though I have a large 10kWp solar array, I do not currently use a Divert Device or have a suitable sink load. I am also move to an small electric car for local stuff after the current super mini wears out.

 

I am also waiting for an excuse to move about a third of my solar to South facing from East facing and shaded onto a new car port/veranda, so I could perhaps increase my output and get a better distribution through the day.

 

Have you done any calculations, Jeremy? My current pv production is around 5MWh per year, and electric usage is around 3.5kWh for an elect bill of say £500 per year. That looks very viable just from savings if they have say a 10 year life or more. If I get £350 bill savings that would be a 10 year flat payback, ignoring price increases of electricity.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

36 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

 

Out of interest, what might those typically be?

 

Pretty much as @Ferdinand has said.  I already have the home file server, router, switch and VDSL modem running from a battery-backed UPS, so we have internet and wifi up during power cuts.

[A_L]

33 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

Where is this from please? I couldn’t see it for that price. My brother is looking at the Tesla Powerwall. Does this do the same thing? 

 

@newhome try here https://thinkrenewables.co.uk/sofar-ac-battery-storage

[Alexphd1]

Would the battery system be zero rated on a new build?

[Jeremy Harris]

15 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

This might be of serious interest to me, since though I have a large 10kWp solar array, I do not currently use a Divert Device or have a suitable sink load. I am also move to an small electric car for local stuff after the current super mini wears out.

 

I am also waiting for an excuse to move about a third of my solar to South facing from East facing and shaded onto a new car port/veranda, so I could perhaps increase my output and get a better distribution through the day.

 

Have you done any calculations, Jeremy? My current pv production is around 5MWh per year, and electric usage is around 3.5kWh for an elect bill of say £500 per year. That looks very viable just from savings if they have say a 10 year life or more. If I get £350 bill savings that would be a 10 year flat payback, ignoring price increases of electricity.

 

I would assume a viable life of no more than ten years, and if you can use, say, 50% of the battery power every day (that's perhaps a bit optimistic) and you can charge the battery pack to 100% for 70% of the year (might be a bit pessimistic) and as long as your maximum demand when running solely on battery power is less than the 3 kW limit of the Sofar system, than I reckon some very rough sums go like this:

 

Initial cost of 9.6 kWh unit, inc VAT and delivery, assume self-install (practical, but subject to Part P, perhaps) = £3,858

 

Assume 50% capacity used for every day charged (50% capacity and 70% days) = 255 days x 4.8 kWh = 1224 kWh/year

 

Assume 10 year life gives energy delivered through life of 10 x 1224 kWh = 12,240 kWh

 

Assume mean unit price of grid electricity over this ten year period is £0.16/ kWh (probably pessimistic), then value of electricity delivered from battery system through life =  12,240 x 0.16 = £1,958

 

Overall, based on these (probably pessimistic) figures, it's not viable in terms of energy cost saving alone.  However. if you were able to use, say 70% of the battery capacity per day, and charge the battery enough to use this much for 80% of the year, then things change a bit to give a saving of around £3,140 through life, based just on energy cost.

 

Things change yet again if the assumed mean through life energy price shifts.  If electricity prices rose to a mean of say £0.18/ kWh, then both these figures increase by 12.5%.

 

Another option would be to look at your loads to see how much battery capacity you really need. The 4.8 kWh Sofar system only costs £2,412 inc VAT and delivery, so if that's enough capacity to meet your needs then two things change.  The likelihood of being able to generate enough PV excess to maintain the battery in a high state of charge increases and the unit price of the stored electricity drops.

 

There's lots of variables that are hard to pin down when working out any savings, especially the ability to reduce day time import by using the battery to knock the peaks off the demand when the PV is not quite generating enough to meet it.  For things like running washing machines, dishwashers of lower rate car chargers,  this may well be a significant saving, but is pretty damned hard to try and quantify.

 

I'm tempted to take the risk of a system not paying back for a few reasons.  The value of having back up power to me is quite high - we get a lot of short duration power cuts that are a nuisance.  I believe that electricity prices may well increase to above the worst-case ten year mean I've used above of £0.18p per kWh.  I also know, from experience, that PV generation can be highly variable in the very short term, going from several kW to next to nothing and back over the course of a few tens of minutes on some cloudy days.  The value of the electricity used from the battery pack during peak load events during days like that may well be enough to remove all day time import from the grid.

[Jeremy Harris]

20 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

Would the battery system be zero rated on a new build?

 

If it was included as a part of the approved plans, then yes, it should be, I think.

[Guest Alphonsox]

Given the prices quoted in the link above I would think there is still some margin for price reduction. If my maths is correct the Sofar system is around £250 per additional kWh of battery. Current automotive industry pricing for Li-Ion batteries is in the £100 per kWh range. Clearly the Sofar batteries come in a nice box and they have nowhere near the same economies of scale but I can see competition and volume driven by lack of export tariff bring their price down quite rapidly.

[Ferdinand]

Potential for a by bulk purchase later in the year?