PeterW Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 23 hours ago, zoothorn said: What I'd planned is to turn off mains water/ cut existing 15mm pipes/ take out sink & units/ add 2 isloating valves.. so In can turn water back on for rest of house whilst sink's out of action. Is that the right idea? Have you got a pipe slice ..?? Quickest way is to get a pair of Hep2O isolator valves, cut the pipe with the slice (DO NOT USE A HACKSAW..!!) and then push the valve on. If you aren’t confident in using copper then use Hep2O pipe but you will also need some cutters which is more expense. Quickest way to use copper if it’s easier is to use Hep2O pushfit fittings and copper pipe as you can’t use a hacksaw with pushfit but it’s pretty much guaranteed to be leak free first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 JSHarris, you've said your thing on this/ you are just repeating. If I am concerned about this cable, then this is my perogative, & I am not. There are FAR greater things of concern in this dreadful 20 yr old DIY disaster of a house than this, which Ive lived with for 2 yerars now! You -could- argue that a jet will land on my house, no point doing anything to it, or even sleeping in it as a jet -could- land on my house. Argue till the cows come home. I'm in a training area, its a feasable argument isn't it? But you wouldn't. Why not? bc the likelihood is so miniscule as to be negligeable. The chance of a jet landing on the house is higher than some muppet 1st plugging this plug into the socket then deciding to drill around it, 1st without checking with a tester for hidden cables, metal, or xyz. It is unconnected. When I post a photo of it connected.. then by all means pipe up with all the advice. This PB isn't even finished yet, it has to come out again so I can change abc, as the extension boxes are proving hard to source (w'out spending £8 on post). This PB is last job now. I have to crack on. Please, I need help with the new wall Im about to start, my kitchen's in a terrible state & its becoming a huge burden to live as it is. If you can help with the work I'd be very grateful as I've said many times to all who have posted helpful posts. I have asked a Q today, can you help? thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, PeterW said: Have you got a pipe slice ..?? Quickest way is to get a pair of Hep2O isolator valves, cut the pipe with the slice (DO NOT USE A HACKSAW..!!) and then push the valve on. If you aren’t confident in using copper then use Hep2O pipe but you will also need some cutters which is more expense. Quickest way to use copper if it’s easier is to use Hep2O pushfit fittings and copper pipe as you can’t use a hacksaw with pushfit but it’s pretty much guaranteed to be leak free first time. Hi Peter, yup got a good pipe slice/ easy job. What Ive got is these https://www.screwfix.com/p/isolating-valve-15mm-2-pack/65251 as I thought to permanently put on (maybe the 2 new mixtap flex jobs connected up ready too?) with compression joints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, zoothorn said: The chance of a jet landing on the house is higher than some muppet 1st plugging this plug into the socket then deciding to drill around it, 1st without checking with a tester for hidden cables, metal, or xyz. That isn’t @JSHarris‘ concern tho. He’s saying that the cable will react with the insulation whether or not it’s switched on and will melt. That would put the shits up me personally as the last thing I would want to do is take a risk that involved electric or fire, but maybe that’s just me. Cables and insulation You say that your house is a 20 year DIY disaster but slowly but surely you are addressing that. This job being a case in point as rather than just tarting up the kitchen with a new worktop and sink you are doing a proper job by addressing the one of the big issues in the house which is the lack of insulation. And you are doing a decent job so far too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Hep2O... Shown here being fitted/ removed onto plastic pipe but it fits just as well on clean 15mm copper pipe. Why I really posted the video was to show how easy it is to remove with the little plastic tool. You can get these or even smaller jobbies at S'fix: https://www.screwfix.com/p/hep2o-push-fit-hepkey-plus-set/5222j These Hep2O shut of valves are quick and easy to fit: https://www.screwfix.com/p/hep2o-hx37-15ws-shut-off-valve-hot-cold-15mm/8473f You WILL lose some water when you cut the pipes. Resign yourself to that fact. Old bath towel against the wall / on the floor and an empty milk carton to slip over the end of the pipe whilst you catch your breath! Washing up bowl on standby to empty into if there's that much! The cold - presuming mains - you'll need to turn the mains off. The hot - hopefully a valve back up the line somewhere? You can isolate the cold feed to the bottom of the hot water cylinder and or put bungs in the cws feed to the cylinder etc. If you're burying all the existing pipes in the new Celotex make damn sure you haven't got any leaks in it! It will be a bitch to sort later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, newhome said: That isn’t @JSHarris‘ concern tho. He’s saying that the cable will react with the insulation whether or not it’s switched on and will melt. That would put the shits up me personally as the last thing I would want to do is take a risk that involved electric or fire, but maybe that’s just me. Cables and insulation You say that your house is a 20 year DIY disaster but slowly but surely you are addressing that. This job being a case in point as rather than just tarting up the kitchen with a new worktop and sink you are doing a proper job by addressing the one of the big issues in the house which is the lack of insulation. And you are doing a decent job so far too. Polystyrene insulation.. this isn't polystyrene insulation tho! If you start you could very well not go in the house at all out of total fear. What about the loft insulation running over the cables? that's what the pro loft insualtors did.. what about the old stuff they put it ontop of? what about the deterioration of pvc cable ontop of treated wood? what about this, that, the other.. you could go on until you're a nervous wreck sleeping in a ditch to be safe (& then the flippin jet lands on your head). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Polystyrene insulation.. this isn't polystyrene insulation tho! If you start you could very well not go in the house at all out of total fear. What about the loft insulation running over the cables? that's what the pro loft insualtors did.. what about the old stuff they put it ontop of? what about the deterioration of pvc cable ontop of treated wood? what about this, that, the other.. you could go on until you're a nervous wreck sleeping in a ditch to be safe (& then the flippin jet lands on your head). YOU are risking people just walking away from this thread mate. This advice thing is a bit of a two way thing. If you ask for advice then choose to ignore what half a dozen people agree is f***ing dangerous they, including me will just walk away. And don't say "I can't". you've proved YOU CAN if you're prepared to listen. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 Ok onoff I see the point of the Hep2O vs mine. So instead of using that presumably std pvc 15mm pipe cutter.. I just use my copper pipe cutter? ie these hep20 jobs don't need that specifically prior to fitting the valve on? I guess I can go to screwfix & change these metal isolators for 2 of those if so. But plastic vs solid metal heavy jobs.. over time-? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Ok onoff I see the point of the Hep2O vs mine. So instead of using that presumably std pvc 15mm pipe cutter.. I just use my copper pipe cutter? ie these hep20 jobs don't need that specifically prior to fitting the valve on? I guess I can go to screwfix & change these metal isolators for 2 of those if so. But plastic vs solid metal heavy jobs.. over time-? No reason at all why you can't use the metal ones if you're happy making a compression joint that won't leak or soldering. Peter suggested Hep2O as it's super quick and the best brand of push fit in the eyes of many on here (me included). Plus you don't need any really special tools. Think they reckon 50 years life expectancy. I've stuff been in here since 98 with not a sign of a leak anywhere. What ones did you get btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, zoothorn said: But plastic vs solid metal heavy jobs.. over time-? As @Onoff says, Wavin give them a minimum 50 year life. On top of that, they are 30 seconds to fit and check and you can do them one handed and effectively blind. You don't need two hands to fit them and you don't need clearance. What you linked are commonly known as cowboy tap connectors... they remove the nut and connect the flex tail straight on as it "fits".... what it does though is cut into the rubber washer as its not a flat sealing surface and they start leaking after time. I would just use Hep20 isolators and push fit flex tails (or these to convert standard tails to pushfit) and work with whats there as life is much easier if you don't need to be trying to do yoga under a sink to fix a drip... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Do you have any sockets behind those cupboards? If so you’ll need to get those extension boxes before you get the sink back in probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) Any waste pipe penetrations, for instance the sink, can be a route in for mice, wasps etc as well as a draughts of course. If the hole thru the wall is a bit ragged and oversize then pack round the pipe with cheap stainless steel kitchen scourer and expanding foam over. Then cut flush. If the mice do chew through the skin of foam the metal will stop them. If a pi$$y wee gap round the pipe then just foam it - from both sides ideally (but not too much), cut flush and paint. https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-stainless-steel-scourers-6pk/p/0178483 Edited August 22, 2018 by Onoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 43 minutes ago, Onoff said: YOU are risking people just walking away from this thread mate. This advice thing is a bit of a two way thing. If you ask for advice then choose to ignore what half a dozen people agree is f***ing dangerous they, including me will just walk away. And don't say "I can't". you've proved YOU CAN if you're prepared to listen. As I did ask for an opinion on my cable it seems, I accept your point (I thought I didn't ask for advice on it.. maybe I did then). Ok I'll redo it last/ when I take off this pb3. Maybe I can think of adding an outside socket instead, if that is the main job is drilling an angled-down hole through. Surely though any hole will need foam-fill sealing, which is foam next to cable itself-? the only socket it can go from, is this double under pb3 Im yet to extend tho. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, newhome said: Do you have any sockets behind those cupboards? If so you’ll need to get those extension boxes before you get the sink back in probably. No, only a single socket high above LHS, which extends out.. so I may be lucky as it is. 22 minutes ago, Onoff said: Any waste pipe penetrations, for instance the sink, can be a route in for mice, wasps etc as well as a draughts of course. If the hole thru the wall is a bit ragged and oversize then pack round the pipe with cheap stainless steel kitchen scourer and expanding foam over. Then cut flush. If the mice do chew through the skin of foam the metal will stop them. If a pi$$y wee gap round the pipe then just foam it, cut flush and paint. https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-stainless-steel-scourers-6pk/p/0178483 Understood/ good idea. I do get mice behind here/ no idea where they come from mind you.. so quite possibly this. I got these valve jobs https://www.screwfix.com/p/isolating-valve-15mm-2-pack/65251 so maybe I should swap for hp20.. I am a bit hampered under the sink, plus there are copper r-angles before the ~under tap upright bit, which need as much care as poss not to mess up: alot more chance with compression joints now I think on it. What I need, ideally, is to attatch the mixtap metal hex connections (presume std), onto something ontop the h20 joint thing. Can this be done directly onto them? or do I need to add another 15mm copper pipe section (I guess as short as poss) between the two? maybe theyre olive-based hex connectors anyway.. Edited August 22, 2018 by zoothorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 2 hours ago, zoothorn said: JSHarris, you've said your thing on this/ you are just repeating. If I am concerned about this cable, then this is my perogative, & I am not. There are FAR greater things of concern in this dreadful 20 yr old DIY disaster of a house than this, which Ive lived with for 2 yerars now! You -could- argue that a jet will land on my house, no point doing anything to it, or even sleeping in it as a jet -could- land on my house. Argue till the cows come home. I'm in a training area, its a feasable argument isn't it? But you wouldn't. Why not? bc the likelihood is so miniscule as to be negligeable. The chance of a jet landing on the house is higher than some muppet 1st plugging this plug into the socket then deciding to drill around it, 1st without checking with a tester for hidden cables, metal, or xyz. It is unconnected. When I post a photo of it connected.. then by all means pipe up with all the advice. This PB isn't even finished yet, it has to come out again so I can change abc, as the extension boxes are proving hard to source (w'out spending £8 on post). This PB is last job now. I have to crack on. Please, I need help with the new wall Im about to start, my kitchen's in a terrible state & its becoming a huge burden to live as it is. If you can help with the work I'd be very grateful as I've said many times to all who have posted helpful posts. I have asked a Q today, can you help? thx You've missed both the critical points I was trying to make. Yes, it's your life, and yours to choose how to live it and what risks to make, I think it's only reasonable to point out things that are dangerous and which it's clear you have no knowledge of - I'm really not doing this just to poke my nose in or be a nuisance, these are bloody serious issues.. Fact: Flexible cable insulation chemically degrades in contact with some forms of insulation, other plastics etc, whether or not the cable is in use. This has caused cable insulation to break down and fail in the past and there are warnings all over the place about it if you choose to check. It doesn't matter at all whether the cable is connected or not - it's a known chemical issue arising from the reaction of the plasticiser in the flexible cable insulation - the stuff that keeps flexible PVC flexible. Fact: Flexible extension leads are rated for use fully unreeled and in open air. Every one sold has a warning on it to this effect, for a very good reason. When surrounded by insulation that section of flexible cable is likely to overheat and exacerbate the breakdown of the cable insulation - unseen by you; you won't have a clue it's happening until one day when you plug that lead in and turn it on to use it and it silently starts to smoulder behind your wall. You may well have stopped using the lead before any fire breaks out - it could sit there smouldering behind that wall for hours and you would no nothing about it. If you're lucky the fire will self-extinguish, still without you knowing anything about it, because it's behind the wall, and sit there waiting until the next time you plug the lead in, before heating up again. If you're unlucky then you will die in your sleep when the fire takes hold hours later and the fumes from the insulation etc cause toxic smoke to fill the house. By all means choose to ignore the above - that's your prerogative, all I'm doing is stating the risks, because it's clear from your reply above that you are unaware of the chemical reactions that are known to happen between flexible cables and insulation and you seem unaware of the overheating risk caused by surrounding a cable that's only ever intended to be used in the open air (that's in the regs as clear as day as well, if you wish to check). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, zoothorn said: I got these valve jobs https://www.screwfix.com/p/isolating-valve-15mm-2-pack/65251 so maybe I should swap for hp20.. I am a bit hampered under the sink, plus there are copper r-angles before the ~under tap upright bit, which need as much care as poss not to mess up: alot more chance with compression joints now I think on it. What I need, ideally, is to attatch the mixtap metal hex connections (presume std), onto something ontop the h20 joint thing. Can this be done directly onto them? or do I need to add another 15mm copper pipe section (I guess as short as poss) between the two? maybe theyre olive-based hex connectors anyway.. Got any photos..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, zoothorn said: As I did ask for an opinion on my cable it seems, I accept your point (I thought I didn't ask for advice on it.. maybe I did then). Ok I'll redo it last/ when I take off this pb3. Maybe I can think of adding an outside socket instead, if that is the main job is drilling an angled-down hole through. Surely though any hole will need foam-fill sealing, which is foam next to cable itself-? the only socket it can go from, is this double under pb3 Im yet to extend tho. Trouble is the people on here are NOT going to sit idly by and NOT comment if they see something so in your face wrong! Anyway, the solution goes something like this: As you can see all the pvc sheathed cable is touching is the pvc pipe - no rough edges or chemical reactions! As to what IP rated socket to fit then it's a tad dependant on what circuit protection you have on that ring main circuit which I assume that existing 2G socket is on? If it's RCD protected then something like this, there is a slightly cheaper LAP branded one: https://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-13a-1g-switch-socket/35096#product_additional_details_container A single socket linked but you could fit a double one if you wanted. If not then you really need RCD protection so it'll be something like this: https://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-13a-2g-rcd-switched-socket/91095 Your electrician will I'm sure be able to advise you! If you take electricity outside you're into the realms of Part P. Edited August 22, 2018 by Onoff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Get under the sink with a camera and you'll get helpful suggestions for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 The main reason I'm using the external cable thru the window frame (as it were), as it was before, is bc fitting an eternal socket will ruin the look of the front of the house. Its a stone cottage, an ugly socket on the stone face now I'm thinking on it more.. is a no-no. Ok what I'll haver to do is cut this cable at the hole in the PB I made/ fill, & cut at the external exit point (reluctantly as I use it daily). Then feed an extension thru the damn fkn window: Exactly what I didn't want (the very reason for this cable) but now have no choice it seems. It'll take me a week to do that socket externally too via the back of the 2G socket as I'm not proficient enough plus it means one heck of a powerful drill + a whopping long large bore bit.. I just don't have, or will cost me a fortune. I want to forget this cable for now. Its causing me stress now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 23 minutes ago, Onoff said: Get under the sink with a camera and you'll get helpful suggestions for sure. Yes will do once AA cam batts charged/ end of day. Plus pic of the mixtap hex connector ends. Actually the plumbing is the best work bit of the house.. seems properly done, thank god. Thanks chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 You are going to need to keep those batteries charged and ready to use. If you get into difficulty with plumbing etc you won’t want to wait until the end of the day to post the sos photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 No understood- its another day of prep anyway tho, 2 days so far.. I need to get completely sorted before taking this sink unit out. I need to replace isolator valves, late tmrw before I get them > so thurs before I can contemplate starting. I hate to think how long until the new top/ sink can be put in once Ive started tho.. maybe best part of 2 weeks I'll have to account for to do this: not easy at all to live like so. I need to go right back & establish how the tops will fit together before too.. so best I start the whole thing next week now. If I rememebr to I'll put cam batts on charge each ev.. it takes a few pics, then AA's need to charge for most of a day again (old SLR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 This is mixtap info (looks like a 1/2" guage hon the hex connector ends // M8 connections into the 2 tap inputs, by hand) https://city-plumbing-supplies.scene7.com/is/content/travisperkins/Kitchen-Taps-iflo-Kisdon-Monobloc-Chrome-Kitchen-Tap~X0016_323212_TECH_0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 12 minutes ago, zoothorn said: This is mixtap info (looks like a 1/2" guage hon the hex connector ends // M8 connections into the 2 tap inputs, by hand) https://city-plumbing-supplies.scene7.com/is/content/travisperkins/Kitchen-Taps-iflo-Kisdon-Monobloc-Chrome-Kitchen-Tap~X0016_323212_TECH_0 Standard 1/2” so that fits direct to those adapters I linked earlier. One of those on each end and it’s push fit heaven .... just make sure the end is a proper cut end and not the raggy end of pipe... Grab a couple of Hep2O elbows too and a coupler and you can always fabricate the correct connections. You don’t need pipe stiffeners if you use copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 2 hours ago, PeterW said: @Onoff Peter, the standard tail 155mm things that fit into the tap > then flexi with a hex 1/2" nut on.. cannot fit onto the hep20 things. Is that correct? so the thing you linked to is a converter.. I put on the flexi tail hex end > into the hep20 isolator valve, with the 2 similar ends? christ on a bike.. I thought this was going to be the easiest bit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now