Triassic Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 (edited) I’m about to order timber for my sole plate. Do I order treated or untreated timber? As I have a DPM under my insulated slab, do I need a separate DPC under the timber sole plate? Edited May 30, 2018 by Nickfromwales DPC to DPM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 19 hours ago, Triassic said: I’m about to order timber for my sole plate. Do I order treated or untreated timber? Yes, the timber needs to be treated. 19 hours ago, Triassic said: As I have a DPM under my I insulated slab, do I need a separate DPC under the timber sole plate? Yes, you need a separate DPC under your timber soleplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bissoejosh Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 19 hours ago, Triassic said: I’m about to order timber for my sole plate. Do I order treated or untreated timber? As I have a DPM under my I insulated slab, do I need a separate DPC under the timber sole plate? Ours isn't treated to my knowledge but it hasn't been questioned either by the frame provider or BCO. We've put an extra DPC under soleplate, not sure what it does but cheap enough not to matter I guess. On top of this below the sole plate is a 2/3mm closed cell foam gasket strip. My understanding is that only external timber has to be treated and our eaves sprocket and gable ladders are so the question is obviously considered at manufacturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 None of a TF kit would come treated, as its assumed that it would never again be subject to damp / rain etc. However, being a bit OCD, I'd probably still buy treated timber for the soleplate just as it would feel to me to be the right thing to do, but I suppose this all depends on how long the soleplate would actually be sat in rainwater / exposed. The timber vertically rising from it would dry out far quicker so would be less 'problematic', but the soleplate will always have water sandwiched between it and the DPC. Do what feels right to you I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 @Triassic Following on from my earlier post regarding the need to use treated timber for sole plates, the official guidance documents that a surveyor would/should use and that a Building Inspector should be referring to are 1) NHBC: Sole Plates (and the timber in external wall frames) fall into use class 2 therefore they should be treated with preservative unless the timber used is heartwood only and of durability class 1 – 2 (IE certain hardwoods and imported Western Red Cedar) 2) BS 8417: The recommendation in the British Standard is that all of the following timbers should be treated with preservative: tiling battens, frame timbers in timber frame houses, wood in pitched roofs with high condensation risk, woods in flat roofs, ground floor joists, sole plates (above dpc), wood joists in upper floors built into external walls. (In BS 8417 these woods are assigned to a “higher” use class than suggested by their location in the structure, owing to the potential consequences of failure based on experience within the UK.) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 just scanned through my TF quotes and 75% of them include external panels of fully treated timber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) Hmmmm regarding Timber and "sole plates" not sure if we are talking about the same things I am thinking about. I have 2 different style of connections where the Potton TF meets the Floor a) the inside ones are like a little Catnic box, supporting the pretty timber beams....Metal "feet" have a space inside them ....these have now been bolted and filled with Engineering Brick, Concrete 4mm "shims" and smothered in some type of Glue ... b) the outside ones are what i think is referred to as "Glu-Lams" ?? and appear to be metal bolt-sandwiched between chunky timber beams..the metal looks far more substantial than on the internal ones Does anyone know for the type A above ...do i need to to do anything to them prior to insulation and screed ? I heard someone say shutter them a few inches around ...and pour C30 in there just shy of the Screed top level .. ..is this a common practice ? Type B external ones ..have typically some large gaps around them where they meet the kicker brick course ...I am thinking if the screed is pumped in ..i might lose a cube just getting leakage out around these ..should i shutter and fill these gaps with concrete/trench block prior to Floor Pour ?..or is there some hidden engineering reason for these spaces ? Edited July 11, 2018 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 What do Potton suggest..?? I wouldn’t want concrete in direct contact with that and the timber will need protecting anyway if it’s on show in the new house as it will get covered in screed/plaster/crud and will be a sod to clean up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) Potton Rep called in about an hour ago ...he is very helpful chap really. but they dont really like to advise anything to do with groundwork or floors .. he did say he HAS seen the shuttered and filled with Concrete to the top of insulation ....with screed on top of the lot ...but he says he has also seen it just packed tight up with insulation (as per rest of floor) and then screeded to correct level I am tempted to go for the latter .....not out of laziness....but i cant see what benefit a mini 4in concrete jacket serves ..can you? I mean there are now bolts in the bottom (albeit obscured with engineering brick and resin) ..so i cant see them getting "moisturized" Oh and yes ...screeders and plaster guys HATE working near these type of beams ....whenever they see them they start talking about us making sure they are "beaded or shadow-joined" where they meet ...and full poly wrapped ...and coating them with wax/oil etc is advisable Not responsible for any damage that lime or cement does to feature woodwork ...please sign this waiver ? hmmm...I am not sure what has happened to these guys in the past ....but they are scared of something...and this isnt even oak! So if anyone else is planning to plaster close to these type of beams ...I think caution is the best option ...I am going to wrap and edge these of like I am lining a Nuclear Cooling tower !!! Edited July 11, 2018 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 @Ed_MK are these exposed structural timber columns inside the building? If so, the exposed faces will need 30 minute protection against fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I wired a house about a year ago that had a number of feature posts and beams a bit like this left exposed. Where the bottoms of the posts ended up buried in the floor screed, somehing caused black staining to wick up the posts about 6" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Ouch to BOTH of the above posts !!! Any advice ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: @Ed_MK are these exposed structural timber columns inside the building? If so, the exposed faces will need 30 minute protection against fire. this puzzles me TBH MrP... If they are exposed and feature (6 uprights 25mmx25mm ..all through the house) ..but they must be structural too ...as they are sat on the C30 Concrete to foundations and Padstones ...so presumably they are holding the frame up (in conjunction with other elements) So how can these be made Fire-resistant for 30 mins ...It' s not like i can insulate and box them ....the wife paid extra so she can SEE them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Plasterboard is the standard way but you can buy specialist clear intumescent varnish. Expensive, but the Building Inspector will be happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr Punter said: Plasterboard is the standard way but you can buy specialist clear intumescent varnish. Expensive, but the Building Inspector will be happy Bugger me ...but there is noting around them TO BURN Sat in the middle of a load of ceramic tile etc We were recommended to treat them with Beeswax and perhaps lightly sand and blow dry first ? They are Douglas Fir ..(what is apparently called in the Timber Frame World ...Poor Mans Oak) ....not how it was described to me when i was signing the order form LOL The thing with DF ..is it ages to look LIKE Oak (takes 2-4 years to take on the colour with age) ....and it is supplied shot blasted and draw knifed ...convincing once you see it and I have looked at a LOT of old Pottons !! If i tell the wife we either have to ... a) Cover it all up with Gyproc sheets with 3 inch felt nails or b) Daub and Soak it in some stuff like "asbestos Cuprinol intuoomy Varnish etc" I dont think I will be eating solid food for a few weeks ...lets put it that way ....its why she LOVED Potton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 But this is Pottons issue not yours ..!! You cannot sell something as a feature in a product that basically can’t be used..!! I’d expect that these aren’t actually structural but I would be calling the supplier .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 3 hours ago, PeterW said: But this is Pottons issue not yours ..!! You cannot sell something as a feature in a product that basically can’t be used..!! I’d expect that these aren’t actually structural but I would be calling the supplier .... I don't doubt your knowledge for a second Peter! but looking at the slab drawing you can see the 7 beams (internal featured) marked on there like black squares and dashed boxes. These dashed square are basically Load bearing Padstones shimmed onto C30 Pillars that run right down to the Foundation Slab itself ... I am no expert (understatement)...but whatever they support ,,they certainly took a lot of time to line them up and make sure the mix was dead on for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Ok so I would ask Potton what the score is here as you have paid for a structural component to be on display and at no point they mention fire protection ..?!! you can use this stuff but I wouldn’t be paying for it .....! I’d be taking it off their final bill ..!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Aren't they a bloody great thermal bridge, too, which will create cold spots (with the commensurate risk of condensation) at the base of each of these posts? Questions need to be asked about how the thermal bridging has been addressed, in my view, as well as building regs compliance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) thanks you Two. As they are finishing off some details in the next few days ...and they have been good to us regarding giving us extra feature timber and stuff....I dont want to "urinate on the french fries" just yet ...but of course ...it HAS to be mentioned. All good questions ...even though 2 x BCO has never asked them of us ...(sigh) I dont want an unsafe house ....so if they don't "stump up" ...I will have to eat it ...as i couldn't sleep at night if i didn't !... thats a LOT of beamwork to treat..I mean i take it to mean JUST the vertical supporting ones DOWNSTAIRS ? ....As those beam extend (via metal box section division) and continue right upstairs too ..eek! and there is even more horizontal ones ..OMG, I will be painting from Now til next easter ....I bet its one of those "several coats applied over 2 weeks" gear too ...i can sense a migraine coming on ... Edited July 12, 2018 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 18 minutes ago, Ed_MK said: ...and they have been good to us regarding giving us extra feature timber and stuff.. Sorry but they are a supplier and unless you’re a serial self builder who is going to use them again, you have no loyalty to repay ... they have made a profit from you and they need to give you what you have paid for and ensure it’s safe and meets regulations. You wouldn’t buy a new car and accept it with 4 bald tyres just because the salesman was nice and made you a coffee .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, PeterW said: Sorry but they are a supplier and unless you’re a serial self builder who is going to use them again, you have no loyalty to repay ... they have made a profit from you and they need to give you what you have paid for and ensure it’s safe and meets regulations. You wouldn’t buy a new car and accept it with 4 bald tyres just because the salesman was nice and made you a coffee .... I know you are right Peter ...and I wasn't going to let it slip. .....But I think it is more diplomatic to pick my "timing" I have told the REAL BOSS today ! ...and she will not forget it 100%... That's the good think about the BH Forum ...hundreds (if not more) People get to read this stuff and then they go forward armed and ready with the right questions...especially if they are ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS like us... ...Makes you feel proud and brings a tear to your eye ! ...i bet CROATIA don't have a Homebuild Forum as good as this ..HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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