Another "what's the correct name" plumbing question

[ProDave]

Yet again I am struggling to find what I want because I don't know what it is called.

 

For a closed circuit heat pump circulating loop filled with antifreeze, I see these not filled from a conventional header tank, and usually not sealed and pressurised.

 

Instead they seem to be fed from a "bottle" that sits on the top of a pipe and forms the function of feed and expansion. You top it up manually and it is usually clear so you can see the contents

 

Well I have searched loads of plumbing sites and I am buggered if I have been able to find one. It would help if I knew what it is called as "fill bottle" "header bottle" etc is clearly wrong.

[ToughButterCup]

55 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Yet again I am struggling to find what I want because I don't know what it is called.

[...]

 

Glad it's not just me that suffers like that - in my case it's about everything to do with building.

 

The latest discovery is that rafters have tails, and they in turn have underboards  which should be struck and pointed at the same time. 

[Onoff]

Dosing pot / vessel?

 

Edit: Sure I've seen these at work with a couple of valves whereby you add the "stuff" then close one valve then open another to introduce to the system. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Onoff

[ProDave]

This is the sort of thing that comes up for "dosing pot" https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flamco-mild-steel-dosing-pot-3-5L/183242350344?hash=item2aaa185f08:g:fbcAAOSwS-Va6B0B

 

What I am after is way way simpler. It's a clear (or semi clear) plastic bottle. the bottom is open to a pipe and the top has a cap (with a vent) to top it up.

 

It is literally a very small header tank that you manually fill with antifreeze mixture to keep it topped up.

 

Out of desparation I could just use a 4 gallon conventional header tank and not have it connected to a ballcock, but you can;t see the level.

 

Just about every heat pump system I have seen uses this arrangement, but I just can't find the damned thing for sale because it probably has some bizarre name that has nothing to so with header or tank or vessel.

[PeterW]

That’s odd as all the heat pump circuits I’ve seen are sealed as it stops the antifreeze oxidising. The one I’ve done recently has an 8 litre expansion tank and a fill loop. I also have a magnetic filter in there for dosing up to 500 ml

[ProDave]

I like the simplicity of a manual fed gravity feed & expansion.

 

If I go pressurised then that's another over pressure / over temp valve and another D2 pipe to get out of the building and discharge somewhere.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

I like the simplicity of a manual fed gravity feed & expansion.

 

If I go pressurised then that's another over pressure / over temp valve and another D2 pipe to get out of the building and discharge somewhere.

 

 

No it's not. 

Only G3 ( potable water ) requires you to go D1/D2 with tun-dish to regs. This is primary heating water so no problem at all. You can have the PRV outside, or do what most do and just have the PRV 'blow off' into the empty 10/15L antifreeze container. The volume of expanded water in a sealed system pumped up to 1.0 bar will be a few pints.

Id go sealed and pressurised, header tanks are antiques. Can you mount a PRV inside the ASHP chassis ?

[ProDave]

Okay, I have never done a pressurised primary (yes I am a bit of a dinosaur)

 

So tell me just HOW to I get the antifreeze in?  With presurised you fill from a fill loop off the mains water, but that won't get the antifreeze in?  With a header tank I just load the header with antifreeze and fill it from that, simple.

 

But it still IRKS me that I have seen the item I want (this plastic header bottle thing) in use many many times but I just can't find one anywhere to buy because I don't know what it is called.

 

MY ASHP is the "compact" version, which basically means it has no water plumbing inside it. It is literally the 2 ports of the PHE protrude through holes in the back and that is the only water connections to it, so no not really any chance to get extra plumbing stuff inside it.

[dpmiller]

Old expansion bottle out of a car?

[ProDave]

Just now, dpmiller said:

Old expansion bottle out of a car?

Don't tempt me, I have seen plenty of those when searching for the real thing.

 

They tend to be pressurised which is not what I want but a small hole drilled in the cap will sort that.

[Nickfromwales]

25 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Okay, I have never done a pressurised primary (yes I am a bit of a dinosaur)

 

So tell me just HOW to I get the antifreeze in?  With presurised you fill from a fill loop off the mains water, but that won't get the antifreeze in?  With a header tank I just load the header with antifreeze and fill it from that, simple.

 

But it still IRKS me that I have seen the item I want (this plastic header bottle thing) in use many many times but I just can't find one anywhere to buy because I don't know what it is called.

 

MY ASHP is the "compact" version, which basically means it has no water plumbing inside it. It is literally the 2 ports of the PHE protrude through holes in the back and that is the only water connections to it, so no not really any chance to get extra plumbing stuff inside it.

This looks to have a sprinkler head that is maybe 3/8" or 1/2". 

Connect that via a flexi to a non return valve and an isolation valve. Most solar thermal control groups have these so you pump in and it's trapped by the NRV much like a combi. 

Drill powered pumps can be used but are a bit messy to use.  

[ProDave]

You are not selling it to me.

 

So far I would need an expansion vessel, a non return valve, and over pressure blow off valve some isolating valves, a fill loop and a gizmo to pump the antifreeze in.

 

Vs a £20 header tank and a tank connector.

 

For no appreciable benefit, more work to install and more to go wrong.

 

If only I can find this bottle type header, otherwise a standard 4 gallon header is starting to look attractive.

[Nickfromwales]

6 hours ago, PeterW said:

That’s odd as all the heat pump circuits I’ve seen are sealed as it stops the antifreeze oxidising. The one I’ve done recently has an 8 litre expansion tank and a fill loop. I also have a magnetic filter in there for dosing up to 500 ml

Does antifreeze evaporate if open to atmosphere ? 

 

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

You are not selling it to me.

I'm not trying to

[joe90]

Just completed mine and there is a pressure release valve in the ASHP, a filling loop, and the inhibitor was funnelled into the pipe feeding the auto air release  valve at the highest point, air valve put back them pressurised via the filling loop.

[ProDave]

As I say, mine is the "compact" version with almost no water plumbing in the ASHP. I have to insert a pump, flow meter, auto vent valve, and magnetic filter in the connecting pipe work.

 

Now here is another thing. The manual tells me the warranty will be void if I do not have a magnetic filter.  Now correct me if I am wrong, the magnetic filter is to remove ferrous particles from the circulating water. I could understand that if I was using steel radiators or there was a steel or cast iron boiler invlolved.  BUT I am using copper pipe, Pex Al Pex UFH pipe, brass manifolds and valves, a stainless steel coil in the HW tank, and I believe the PHE in the heat pump is stainless steel.  Pray tell me just where these ferrous particles are going to come from. Another unnecessary expense?

[Guest Alphonsox]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

As I say, mine is the "compact" version with almost no water plumbing in the ASHP. I have to insert a pump, flow meter, auto vent valve, and magnetic filter in the connecting pipe work.

 

Now here is another thing. The manual tells me the warranty will be void if I do not have a magnetic filter.  Now correct me if I am wrong, the magnetic filter is to remove ferrous particles from the circulating water. I could understand that if I was using steel radiators or there was a steel or cast iron boiler invlolved.  BUT I am using copper pipe, Pex Al Pex UFH pipe, brass manifolds and valves, a stainless steel coil in the HW tank, and I believe the PHE in the heat pump is stainless steel.  Pray tell me just where these ferrous particles are going to come from. Another unnecessary expense?

 

What's the circulation pump made of ? I've always assumed the rotating metal bits etc. were steel and therefore likely to be a source of ferrous particles.

 

[PeterW]

I’ve just fitted one of these - I don’t need a magnetic filteru either (only manifolds are steel) as mine needed a Y-Strainer and this comes with one already in it. 

 

Flomasta

 

Most - not all - need that lot in the pipe work. Some have built in pumps but not as many as I thought. 

 

Air vent at the highest point, the rest goes in the return pipe work. 

[ProDave]

12 minutes ago, Alphonsox said:

 

What's the circulation pump made of ? I've always assumed the rotating metal bits etc. were steel and therefore likely to be a source of ferrous particles.

 

Ah true, there will be 3 cast iron pumps in total. But isn't that what the inhibitor is for anyway,  to stop them rusting........

[newhome]

My system was full of shit and a magnetic filter was put in recently. It kept knackering the boiler when it filled up with crap. 

 

Is this anything like what you are looking for (it's not a bottle as such .....). 

 

https://www.tradecounterdirect.com/plumbing-tools/plumbing-valve/eezyfill-central-heating-dosin_type.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tennentslager]

Give @Onoff a shout, he will make you one for a tenner and a bottle of Stella ???

[joe90]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

As I say, mine is the "compact" version with almost no water plumbing in the ASHP. I have to insert a pump, flow meter, auto vent valve, and magnetic filter in the connecting pipe work.

 

Now here is another thing. The manual tells me the warranty will be void if I do not have a magnetic filter.  Now correct me if I am wrong, the magnetic filter is to remove ferrous particles from the circulating water. I could understand that if I was using steel radiators or there was a steel or cast iron boiler invlolved.  BUT I am using copper pipe, Pex Al Pex UFH pipe, brass manifolds and valves, a stainless steel coil in the HW tank, and I believe the PHE in the heat pump is stainless steel.  Pray tell me just where these ferrous particles are going to come from. Another unnecessary expense?

 

Mine also needed a pump and the guy fitting it said a magnetic filter was not needed as it was all stainless and plastic.

[ProDave]

32 minutes ago, Tennentslager said:

Give @Onoff a shout, he will make you one for a tenner and a bottle of Stella ???

I haven't got that long to wait

[ProDave]

Back to my search for this header tank / bottle thing.

 

I have found a couple of pictures of the thing I am looking for:

 

Top right filled with a blue liquid:

 

 

Top left filled with a pink liquid:

[Nickfromwales]

@ProDave

 

https://www.flexej.co.uk/hvac/dosing-pots?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuqTivv6o2wIVLZPtCh1ZdQ1AEAAYASAAEgLgxvD_BwE

 

Getting closer. 

 

https://flamcogroup.com/uk-en/catalog/system-components-for-heating-cooling-and-potable-water-installations/accessories-for-heating-and-cooling-installations/dosing-pots/mild-steel-dosing-pots/groups/g+c+p+a+view

[Nickfromwales]

Hmmm. Thought a few schematics off those sites may have shown the item with a  part number. All seem to be fed by open 'funnels'. 

''Tis hard work, this little bugger. ?