IVT Ecolane ASHP - any owners out there?

[jack]

Welcome to Buildhub!

 

I can't comment on the substance of your post, but don't worry about your English, it's excellent.

[PeterW]

Hi and welcome @testom

 

Thanks for the link - it’s something I had seen before but only parts so useful to get a copy !

 

The problem you have using Auto setting is that it needs you to change SW6 on the FTC not the unit itself to allow the unit to use the auto flow temperatures and they are too low for the current use that you would need as they are 28/20c depending on setting. 

 

Auto is only really good for using as a single flow source - the best unit to control these is the FTC however they are very expensive (£450/€500) and are not fully integrated with the older heat pumps. 

 

What is your experience of electronics ..?

[Ed Davies]

On 09/10/2018 at 11:45, readiescards said:

Can the Sunamp A1-A2 connectors drive this ASHP directly?

 

On 09/10/2018 at 15:08, Nickfromwales said:

The 34 will get heated and then stop calling for heat

 

Where does the PCM34 call for heat other than on the A1-A2 connectors (assuming it's not an electric one)? So readiescard's question is whether or not those connectors have an appropriate rating to drive the heat pump “directly”. Doesn't that depend on the details of the heat pump and what “directly” means rather than any discussion of the logic of the overall heating system? A 3 amp relay isn't going to sufficient to take the whole current of the heat pump but is probably suitable for other control inputs in some manner.

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

 

Where does the PCM34 call for heat other than on the A1-A2 connectors (assuming it's not an electric one)? So readiescard's question is whether or not those connectors have an appropriate rating to drive the heat pump “directly”. Doesn't that depend on the details of the heat pump and what “directly” means rather than any discussion of the logic of the overall heating system? A 3 amp relay isn't going to sufficient to take the whole current of the heat pump but is probably suitable for other control inputs in some manner.

 

I think you're right, the only call for heat is from the low current A1-A2 connections that control the 230 VAC power relay for the heater.  Looking at the connections in our control box it looks very much as if one of the low power relays is used to switch 230 VAC to A1-A2, which in turn are connected to the coil of the larger DIN rail mounted power relay.  There is room on the DIN rail to add another relay, so it would seem possible to add some form of ASHP control within the control box.  The best arrangement may be to just make this a dry contact that closes when there is a call for heat, so that there's isolation between the power circuits within the Sunamp and the ASHP control system.

 

 

[Ed Davies]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

Looking at the connections in our control box it looks very much as if one of the low power relays is used to switch 230 VAC to A1-A2, which in turn are connected to the coil of the larger DIN rail mounted power relay.

 

I think it's the other way round: looking at UniQ manual 180719.pdf Figure 6.2 it looks like the black thing with an orange plastic bit on the front on the DIN rail to the right of the connector blocks in readiescard's picture is relay R2. The low-power relay on the PCB controls the coil of R2 (via J5-1 and J5-2) and those wires going to the bottom of the relay (splitting off from the main loom by the “o” of “controller” in the red writing) which then provides dry contacts to A1 and A2 via the black wires out of its top (assuming there are two there, difficult to see in the picture). I.e., A1-A2 are connected to the contacts, not the coil, of the DIN-mounted relay.

 

Agree, though, there's room in there to put a beefier 16 amp relay with its coil driven either by A1 and A2 (taking live and neutral from other connectors), or perhaps even directly from the J5-1 and J5-2 wires, but that it might be better to just use A1 and A2 to drive a separate relay closer to the ASHP if the dry contacts don't make sense as a direct control input for the heat pump (which I think they probably do).

[Jeremy Harris]

There's a difference between the two units, our's is as shown in diagram 6.1, with A1-A2 being the power relay coil:

 

 

One thing I'm going to add to our system is a small box with a panel indicator light, to show when the unit is calling for heat, as at the moment there's no indication of the unit status at all.  The old Sunamp PV had four LEDs on the side that showed its status, something I found useful.

[testom]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

Hi and welcome @testom

 

Thanks for the link - it’s something I had seen before but only parts so useful to get a copy !

 

The problem you have using Auto setting is that it needs you to change SW6 on the FTC not the unit itself to allow the unit to use the auto flow temperatures and they are too low for the current use that you would need as they are 28/20c depending on setting. 

 

Auto is only really good for using as a single flow source - the best unit to control these is the FTC however they are very expensive (£450/€500) and are not fully integrated with the older heat pumps. 

 

What is your experience of electronics ..?

Thx for your reply.

I should explain at the begining that I purchase this ASHP only for the purpose of heating.

I want it to get connected to my central heating system (heating oil boiler) purelly to save on heating oil.

I have 10kW photovoltaic system in my place too. Happy to "consume" some of kWh through ASHP.

It is not always necessary to run boiler especially when heat demand is low, hence in such moments I want to ASHP to "warm up" my radiators. I should not be a problem to get this two source of heat to be connected together in a logical way- thats not a problem.

I manage to get FTC5 controller from popular website some time ago (£350), but I think I will have no use from it (model PAC-IF62)... unfortunatelly.

Now I am thinking of getting anything like set of 4 digital termostats (w1209), and get those unit set to different setings (0-10 C, 10-20, 20-30, 30-45) connected together via set of relays to be able to acheve 3-or for steps via inputs A1,A2,A3. This should be easy to make.

 

I am ok with electronics but I am not that far (so far) to build myself any kind of Arduino yet. 

Next saturday I will start connecting it (just not sure how to  controll it yet) in a "clever way"  

[Ed Davies]

4 hours ago, JSHarris said:

There's a difference between the two units, our's is as shown in diagram 6.1, with A1-A2 being the power relay coil:

 

But readiescard's photo looks more like an SBC_03 controller (for the non-electric UniQs). It's only got one big non-connector DIN-mounted thingy, for starters. AIUI they have two Sunamps, a PCM34 and a PCM58, and this is for the PCM34 (doing UFH and DHW preheat off an ASHP). Are you sure you're not thinking of their other one?

 

Also, take care as there are two A1-A2s in play here: the labels on the relays for the coils and the connectors on the DIN rails. I feel safe in assuming readiescard's original question referred to the connectors on the DIN rail because they put a great big red circle round them on the photo.

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

But readiescard's photo looks more like an SBC_03 controller (for the non-electric UniQs). It's only got one big non-connector DIN-mounted thingy, for starters. AIUI they have two Sunamps, a PCM34 and a PCM58, and this is for the PCM34 (doing UFH and DHW preheat off an ASHP). Are you sure you're not thinking of their other one?

 

Also, take care as there are two A1-A2s in play here: the labels on the relays for the coils and the connectors on the DIN rails. I feel safe in assuming readiescard's original question referred to the connectors on the DIN rail because they put a great big red circle round them on the photo.

 

I did mention originally "Looking at the connections in our control box it looks very much as if one of the low power relays is used to switch 230 VAC to A1-A2, which in turn are connected to the coil of the larger DIN rail mounted power relay."  

 

I hadn't spotted that our controller was different internally.  It's a coincidence that I'd just been looking inside our controller with a view to adding an indicator, driven from the A1 and A2 terminals.

 

Given that the standard way of marking DIN mount relays is to label the coil as A1 and A2, I'm not sure that using the same terms to describe the dry contacts on the SBC_03 controller is that good an idea - it certainly managed to cause me to be confused!

[Ed Davies]

10 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Given that the standard way of marking DIN mount relays is to label the coil as A1 and A2, I'm not sure that using the same terms to describe the dry contacts on the SBC_03 controller is that good an idea - it certainly managed to cause me to be confused!

 

Yep, not ideal. Maybe it evolved from a design which didn't have the relay in the box so the A1-A2 connectors would have gone to the A1-A2 coil inputs on an external relay.

[moisescualex]

Cheers guys , my name is Alex and an owner of an IVT Ecolane heat pump . I want to tell you that I've struggled at the beginning  with the controller that was provided with this heat pump . After a while I've looked for a solution and I managed to find someone that built a controller for me with an Arduino and  an esp8266 . I want to tell you that now I have heating , cooling and dhw as options in the menu . I can set a certain flow temperature and the heat pump will keep it , I have attached a 3 way valve for hot water and the cooling option is useless for me as I have radiators inside my house . I can attach a room thermostat to the controller , it can be wireless , smart or wired and I can change the settings of the heat pump  from my phone which is connected to the wi-fi's local network and by opening a browser where I can access the settings . I'm not trying to sell you the controller , all I wanted you to know is that is possible to obtain the same results with this pump as you would with a more expensive one that you pay considerable more . Cheers 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

 

 

@moisescualex, the big problem with someone supplying you with a custom built controller is that it almost certainly won't have any form of approval, as required by EU regulations.  I would be very wary of using an non-approved item of electrical equipment, as it may well not even be legal, let alone compliant with the relevant regulations (in this case the EMC Directive and the Low Voltage Directive, plus the ROHS regulations).

 

I would personally strongly suggest that no one considers purchasing any non-compliant item of electrical equipment.

[testom]

On 03/09/2018 at 11:18, PeterW said:

By way of update. 

 

The controller power works in reverse to what is expected :

 

A5 - B1 +24v

A1-A3 0v

B2-B3 0v

 

 

 

Hello everyone,

Quick update from me in terms of connecting PUHZ-W90.

 

Like I wrote before I get this ASHP few weeks ago. That basic controller which normally comes with it was not included. Never mind. Thanks to PeterW everything was preety easy to do.

1- The unit it has been placed outside, and it is connected via 1` pipe work to small loop filled with 50% of glycol (5.5l)- flow pump, filter, expansion vessel (2L),air bleeder valve, ball valve, fill valve and plate heat exchanger. In this loop entire pipework is not exceeding 5m.

2- CH loop (filled with water) is connected to above mentioned heat exchanger from the outer side. 

3- I did not wanted to spend extra money on any controller (already did) so I have made one like I wrote few days ago - based on set of 5 electronic termostats- each individually set, and I have added also to these few relays (7 of R4).

4- I have done for myself a possibility to have a controll on what power unit works - with a help of ZBE 101 and 102 switch elements. I set 3 steps (3- position knob) of power.

In each step pump starts on different level. Step 1 - 77%, step 2 - 88%, step 3 - 100% of its power. Each step then has 3 smaller steps:

1- 77- 53- 42

2- 88-64- 53

3- 100-88-64

During run - as soon as temp at outlet is rising termostat 1 (set to 48C) gets active and power goes down to another lower step i.e. start at 77% - then 53%. After that I have another termostat set to 51C. If temp still rising termostat nr 2 triggers and output power goes down to 42%. When after that temp still rising there is another termostat set at 61C. This one when activated Stops the ASHP untill temp will get down to 51C (hysteresis). 

There is another run mode (HW- mode -  start output power 42%)- with ist separate set of  termostats- 1first set to trigger at 56C- and power goes down to 30% , and second  termostat set to 60C- when trigger (hysteresis set to 1degree only)- is opens for a moment main loop of CH instalation and pumps hot water on radiators (it takes about 30-40sec and temp goes down to 56C). 

All above mentioned tested. Works very very well. Each termostat has hysteresis set accordingly. 

 

ASHP is running for last 7 days. Lowest temp outside I had in my country during this week was 2C.

For all this week (except tests) pump was set to STEP 1 (77% of its power).

Because I installed extra heat exchanger, water temp on radiators goes up to 43C (when pump is set to 48C).

I had to do the install like this cos of the outdoor temp in my country goes well below -20C from time to time.

So small glycol filled loop seems to be good option.

Like I wrote before. This ASHP is just an extra source of heat in my building. And because I have some PV panels I can munch little bit of kWh.

By the way- Pump consumed for last 7 days 175kWh(separate meter installed). Not bad I think. All together for CH and HW. 

Since ASHP is running oil boiler is off. 

I may be able to post some pics if anyone will be interested.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

[Gav_P]

@testom it’s all far too complicated for me to get my head around... but pictures are always good!

[PeterW]

Photos would be good !!

[readiescards]

11 hours ago, PeterW said:

Photos would be good !!

 

With pleasure ?

[ProDave]

Not wishing to be picky, but isn't that a little close to the wall?

[Gav_P]

Any photos of the rest of the system or your customer controller? ?

[testom]

11 hours ago, Gav_P said:

Any photos of the rest of the system or your customer controller? ?

 Hi,

pictures above were added by other happy users of PUHZ-W90.

Nothing to do with my install and my "customised" contoroller. 

[testom]

Now I will add few pics.

 

Quick explanation to all - I am not based in UK or even in EU.

I live in the middle of nowhere and Install is done with all possible materials I could possibly get on the market.

It is done in resonable way and its safe for me for my domestic purpose. 

This is 1K£ project and I have sticked to the budget.

There is one more connection box on the other side of the wall in my basement to which all this pictured is connected. I also heve there small knob and relays to switch between ASHP and oil boiler. 

 

At picutre no. 3 there you can see small hour counter sitting on the pipe. 

I have done some calculation - how many hours a day (including HW preparation) unit works and what is the daily power consumption.

And this is something that absolutelly brings the smile on my face.

- reading from the  2/11/2018  - 18,7kWh used, total run for 24h - 9,5h.

 18.7/9.5 = 1.97kW

 

2kW to keep 22.5 degree of C at entire house!

That is less than my kettle!

 

Regards

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by testom
calculation added to the comment

[testom]

On 02/11/2018 at 09:24, ProDave said:

Not wishing to be picky, but isn't that a little close to the wall?

I have checked the distance from the wall 34cm at my place 

Edited November 3, 2018 by testom

[PeterW]

So....

 

Quick bit of jerry rigging of the controller last night after getting the 2nd fix radials completed and..... it fired up first time !!! I've left it on 65% load, and just got it chugging 27c water into the slab now for the next few days - it is a 9kw output at 7/35 so currently it is drawing around 5.2A - my fag packet calcs say that is around 1.3kW which would give a CoP of near on 4 so I'm quite happy !

 

This lot now needs to be cleaned up and the timers put in properly !

 

[Simplysimon]

come on @PeterW, trying to promote best practise on this forum, HSE  will be visiting you when posting photos like that!

[PeterW]

2 minutes ago, Simplysimon said:

come on @PeterW, trying to promote best practise on this forum, HSE  will be visiting you when posting photos like that!

 

It was temporarily connected for the purposes of testing ..!! Didn’t have chance to take a photo of the finished installation as it was late ... 

[PeterW]

Just to add to this if anyone is thinking about purchasing one. 

 

The spec is for a max 3a start current and there has been some concern raised about these units just hitting full power and staying there. With a clamp meter on, its fairly clear to see that they actually ramp up over about 15-20 seconds to full power then level off, modulating as they go. They power down in a similar fashion with the load dropping off and then the fans finally powering down. 

 

Its probably what  I would expect from a Mitsubishi unit tbh, all in they seem pretty well made.