Another Aberdeenshire self build

[ultramods]

Hi,

I have finally officially moved over from the old forum. 

I am planning a self build just north of Aberdeen, currently waiting for our house to sell. It's only been for sale for 9 days, however no viewers yet. The market in Aberdeen and shire has really dropped with the low oil price.

I was originally thinking about timberframe house with some kind of render board. However after talking to an architect he has recommended using blocks instead of render board, which has got me thinking why not use ICF instead, if the cost is comparable or less and there is local expertise. 

 

[ProDave]

Hi and welcome to the fourm.

I hope you have better luck selling tham me, 18 months, 4 viewings, no offers.

I am building with a timber frame, cladd in 100mm thick wood fibre board for extra insulation and then render onto that.

An architect will recommend the "normal" way of doing things, few seem to have the vision to do things better.

There are a couple on here building with ICF so if that is your chosen route they can give you plenty of advice.

[ultramods]

Thanks Dave, I feel your pain  I know what your market is like, my mum and dad are from Invergordon and took a couple of years to sell their house.

The Architect does seam switched on and judging by some of there previous projects it looks like there aren't building the norm .

What he said to me is, if a car hits your house, would you prefer the house to be dented or the car, which got me thinking. 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by ultramods

[Alexphd1]

Hi. Also building 30 mile north of Aberdeen with passive slab and icf. Have had problems with engineers but hopefully on track now. 

[Inchbyinch]

Welcome to the forum, You'll find some very helpful advise here.

I'd be interest to know the reasons why the architect recommended blocks as a solution. I think there is a process to go through to get the right system...We went from blocks, to ICF, To timber frame and finally settled on Blocks on the lower level and timber frame on top. all had their merits but I'm delighted with our final product.

 ICF wasn't competitive and speaking to some companies in Ireland, ICF doesn't seem to be competitive but it all depends on the system. One thing I have found form builders is that ICF is easy to put together but there is a lot of additional work in securing it for a pour.

Stones blog will give you a good idea and I'd imagine he will give you a great idea on costs also.

happy building, its an exhausting but exhillarting process!!

[ultramods]

Where about are you building Alex? We are looking to build near Newmachar.  what problems have you had and what made you decide on ICF.

inchbyinch, I was wanting to use render board as I thought it would be cheaper, however the architect thought it would be similar price compared to blocks..And the blocks having the advantage of being stronger/tougher. 

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, ultramods said:

What he said to me is, if a car hits your house, would you prefer the house to be dented or the car, which got me thinking. 

 

 

 

I am building my house to keep me warm and cosy. I am not expecting a car to hit it, so that is not high on my design parameters.

I chose the wood fibre external cladding and render, as that gives me extra insulation and helps with the air tightness.  I dislike a blockwork and render wall as it adds virtually nothing to the insulation of the building and does nothing to improver the air tightness.

A by product of the wood fibre and render system is there is no cavity, so no need to pepper the outside wall in weep vents. Instead I get a crisp clean un interupted render all over.

[ultramods]

Dave, can I ask how much you are PSM for completed timber frame including external rendered walls? 

 

can an you do all the wood fibre cladding installation as DIY or are there any specialist steps?

[ProDave]

I haven't worked out the square metre cost yet. That's something i will do when the shell is finished which it's not yet.

Yes fitting the wood fibre board is most definitely a DIY job, I have done it all myself. You just need a saw, and a cordless drill to drive in a lot of very long screws.

I did get someone to do the render as in the past I have proved that is not a skill that I have. It's a lime based render system not cement based.

I started a thread about my construction method. As far as I know I am the only on on here at the moment building this way.

 

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, ultramods said:

What he said to me is, if a car hits your house, would you prefer the house to be dented or the car, which got me thinking. 

 

 

 

That's pretty much the point where I'd ask him to shut the door on the way out

 

[ultramods]

Thanks Dave, I will take a look.

Nick, is it that bad?

 

[Alexphd1]

We are up in peterhead. Our main issue has been with the local engineer who failed to grasp the passive slab and icf principal. Hopefully the new one from Ireland does! For a diy basis, slow project the icf seemed a good solution. Also the houses (parents and mine) are pretty large so a bit of steel needed which works well with icf. 

[Declan52]

Your not going to build a massive reinforced roof incase a plane falls out of the sky. 

If you live on a main road fair enough build a nice thick garden wall to stop the 1/1,000,000 chance of a car ending up in your living room. 

This leaves you free to build a house as you see fit in whatever build method that YOU want not what your architect wants.

[ultramods]

17 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Your not going to build a massive reinforced roof incase a plane falls out of the sky. 

If you live on a main road fair enough build a nice thick garden wall to stop the 1/1,000,000 chance of a car ending up in your living room. 

This leaves you free to build a house as you see fit in whatever build method that YOU want not what your architect wants.

I didn't even think about the planes and helicopters. Back to the drawing board........

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, ultramods said:

Nick, is it that bad?

 

I'd be quite concerned if my architect was basing his preferred construction method on vehicular impact . I'd expect a slightly more 'relevant' argument.....wouldn't you?

[Jeremy Harris]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

I'd be quite concerned if my architect was basing his preferred construction method on vehicular impact . I'd expect a slightly more 'relevant' argument.....wouldn't you?

Especially our build where a vehicle couldn't really hit the house if it wanted to.

I wonder how often houses are damaged by vehicle impacts?  Not often, I'd guess.  I'd also guess that brick, and possible block, was the sort of construction most likely to suffer very severe vehicle impact damage, based on photos where vehicles have crashed into houses, knocked all the supporting brickwork away leaving the structure above to collapse.

Unless the house is being built adjacent to a stretch of road where there is a much increase risk of vehicle impact, I'd say that it's the very last thing anyone should consider when deciding on a construction method.  Performance, cost, suitability for the site etc are all far, far more significant than the extremely tiny risk of a vehicle impact. 

[Declan52]

And unless the outer skin is going to be 4ft thick if a car traveling at any speed hits a wall its getting parked in your house.

Ask the architect how times he has based his construction method on the slim chance of a car hitting a house???

[ultramods]

Thank you for the replies. I will bring it up as the plot we are currently looking at is in the middle of a field accessed by a farm track.

I like the look of the wood fibre board that ProDave has used. Will make enquirers to check that the mortgage lender will allow it.

[Stones]

A warm welcome.  

Cost wise, ICF was the best option for us, and TBH, I'm a convert to it as a building system. We were fortunate in there being two ICF contractors up here, so both the experience building it and accurate pricing.  I know when we lived in Perthshire it simply wasn't on the radar so immediately carried a premium.  Up here comparable to TF, but like everything, a lot depends on your design and specification.

[ProDave]

22 hours ago, ultramods said:

Dave, can I ask how much you are PSM for completed timber frame including external rendered walls? 

 

can an you do all the wood fibre cladding installation as DIY or are there any specialist steps?

Okay here are some rough calculations, bearing in mind it's not finished yet.

Build cost so far £93,500

Included: 

Foundations

Timber frame construction and erection

Roof tiling

wood fibre board cladding and render

All house windows (Rationel ali clad 3G)

most of the insulation (walls and part of the roof)

Drain and services connections

Waste treatment plant

NOT included:

Site costs

Cost of getting services to site

Planning, building warrant, design and "professional" fees

Garage doors and windows not yet purchased

Sun room doors, windows and roofing not yet purchased.

No internal work at all

Will need to buy more insulation.

Landscaping 

 

The house is 154 square metres so that's working out at about £607 per square metre for a nearly finished shell. I don't know if that is good or bad.

 

[CC45]

Hi ProDave,

 

interesting numbers.  House is looking great with you - when we finish ours & I get back into the Scottish hills I must keep an eye out for it!

 

Our build cost works out at £599/ internal m2 (house & garage m2) or if the garage cost is spread over the house m2 then its £734/m2.  Ground works, all services connected, prof fees, timber frame, brick external, some external render, DG windows, roof on (expensive - but 4 gable ends & 5 dormers were never going to be cheap), all insulation, floor screed poured.  Garage nearly done (another £2K should see it done).  Nothing internal done & all externals yet to do.  I'm hopeful to get it done for < £900 but wont be unhappy with £1k/m2.  The BIG downside is that I'm doing the lot - so progress is slow - its going to be a 3 year build.  Still enjoying it though.

 

CC

[Jeremy Harris]

For comparison, our foundations, UFH, insulated and weather tight shell, including roofing and all external cladding, rainwater goods, electricity in and connected, all main drain and water pipes in, etc, came to about £605/m². but we're down in the South where labour costs are greater.  We got to this stage with a main contractor plus three other  contracts, and no DIY work, that all came later, doing first and second fix etc.  We had no professional fees other than planning and building control.

Our final cost, with all the internal stuff done, has come out at £1380/m², including a great deal of DIY work (around 2 years worth, with just me working)

[ProDave]

Interesting Jeremy that you internal fit out costs were more per square metre than the shell cost. If mine ends up the same, I will definitely have a house that has cost more to build than it would ever sell for.

[Guest Alphonsox]

How are you factoring in your borehole costs into those number Jeremy ? Are they part of the £605/m^{2 ?} And does that include the external landscaping, retaining wall, garage etc ?

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, Alphonsox said:

How are you factoring in your borehole costs into those number Jeremy ? Are they part of the £605/m^{2 ?} And does that include the external landscaping, retaining wall, garage etc ?

I've treated the borehole as a water supply service, and it isn't in the above non-serviced cost (apart from electricity, which we put in early).  I included the ground prep for the slab, putting in cables and ducts for services, the electricity supply (because that went in before the house went up), foundations, slab, UFH pipes, shell construction and erection, insulation, airtightness and test, 3G windows and doors (external), roofing slate, gutters, downpipes, external larch cladding and that's it.

The only external costs included in the final figure are the water and foul drainage, the boundary fencing/hedging plus the drive surfacing  with permeable pavers. 

The internal costs were probably a bit higher because we opted for oak joinery everywhere, so have oak doors, frames, architrave, skirtings and staircase.  I think I worked out that just the material cost of the oak was around three times that of painted softwood, and it takes double the time to fit and finish, just because the timber is on show everywhere.  Our kitchen costs were probably on the high side too, I think the worktops ended up costing over £8k, even though the kitchen is just a mid-range solid oak fronted one.  Similarly, we've opted for an MVHR which was around four times the price of a basic model and also opted for higher spec stuff in the bathrooms and kitchen (taps, shower fittings etc).  IIRC, the shower tray alone was around £450 or so, due to its size.  We could have knocked around 20 to 30% of the internal wall finishing cost by opting not to skim the plasterboard, but I wanted dead flat walls and ceilings, so was happy to pay the extra for the plaster skim.

Getting water in cost around £10k in total (eventually!), foul drainage around £4k, so that added a bit to the final cost, too, as those are probably higher-than-average costs.  I've not included landscaping in the cost, other than the basic ground levelling, putting the drive and paths in etc.  On top of that I think we've spent about another £5k getting raised stone-built flower beds, a sandstone patio laid, stone walls around the drive and garden, turf laid etc.

The main ground works and retaining wall came off the site price, as we bought the plot for a price that reflected the ground works needed, so in effect the market price for the plot was that after the major ground works had been done (in effect we bought the plot for around £50k under market price, to allow for the work needed).

We could easily have knocked around £200/m² off the cost by reducing the spec of the internal stuff, but we opted to spend more to get what we wanted and paid for it with my labour and the time its taken to finish.

We've ended up with a build cost (including land, landscaping etc) that's around £20k less than the current valuation, which has surprised me, as I expected to spend about what the house was worth, perhaps a bit more.  Given that the only regular bills for the house are Council Tax and insurance, and that even they are subsidised by around £500 a year from the "profit" the house makes, I'm not at all unhappy with the outcome.  There are a few things I'd have done differently, but there is no way I'm building another house just to get things spot on!