Ed_MK Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Well..its a bit like columbo folks ..but this time we don't know the answer in advance ...but there is plenty of "just one more things" We got in touch with Anglian waste water to connect our aging in-laws up to the main sewer .. (house on map below with red dot) ..and they sent us this very plan. Connect to 5901 they said ...which is a fair way away ....they dont do the work themselves they have a list of contractors ...and so i got one out for a quote you don't want to know ...honestly! that manhole is 3 metres deep and has a ladder down it ...Apparently we would need to come in at invert level and so the digging and the fitting of a manhole on my in-laws land is like 6 figures Bang! So while he was there he noticed their neighbours (green dot) have a manhole in their drive, so he had a peep and it IS a sewage mahole !!! ....but rather than going to 5901 ...it appears to be heading to 6901 Now the current owner knows nothing of how the house got on mains sewage, but there is a legend, rumour, call it what you will that all these houses have a "spur" in the drive way ...which in his case would make sense as the road doesnt look dug up. So i got advice to get a CCTV camera shoved down it ...but after several phone calls I was told that the rod cameras will only go one way ? and that if the neighbour is on some type of lateral? ..with spurs? then they probably wouldnt get to see it ..so it would be a waste of £200 apparently there are "crawler" camera and ones with prehensile sections ...but these are "mad money" and only large contractors or the water board themselves have access to this technology ....(i bet even Area 51 dont have it) So there you have it ...do you guys think my only alternative is to get on the old "banjo and barrow" or do i sell my car to we buyanycar, the wife to Harvey weinstein and pay potentially 15k 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Can you not hire some sewer rods and a mouse and cat scanner and stick them up/ down every available man hole and spray on the path/road the routes they take. It won't be a pretty job by any means but will show you where everything goes. This is a what I mean by a mouse not the Mickey variety. http://www.hireandbuy.co.uk/p/mouse-for-c-a-t-scanner/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Declan52 said: Can you not hire some sewer rods and a mouse and cat scanner and stick them up/ down every available man hole and spray on the path/road the routes they take. It won't be a pretty job by any means but will show you where everything goes. This is a what I mean by a mouse not the Mickey variety. http://www.hireandbuy.co.uk/p/mouse-for-c-a-t-scanner/ Yes, I could ...but i was under the impression the CCTV guys already mentioned some kind if "trace" ...for some reason (although i dont know what it is) ...if there IS a lateral running up that grass verge in a NW direction ...they would not guarantee find it ...or the spurs off it. Is there something difficult about where it is? are laterals always hard to find? ..I don't know ..I wish I did. but the purpose of me paying for the survey was that there may be a CHANCE there is already a spur on our parents land which could save £1000's in digging and not to mention all the added fees, and traffic management for a quiet lane that only one car every 15 mins goes past (if you are lucky) Its just when i clarified, whether after the survey they would be able to tell me definitively that I have a spur, they all said no "probably not" ...which leaves me back to square one Edited February 18, 2018 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jml Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Do you know if any others in row are connected to mains, if not may be worth finding out, especially if to other side of your in-laws. Bit detective work without initial cost, may help determine sewer runs. Lots of public sewers are not mapped, many only became public after change in ownership laws of 2011, where ownership passed to water companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Can you not take the pipe out from the in laws then across the lawn into the neighbours manhole then it will go on into the main sewer. The other 2 houses to the left with the green dots where do they connect in to the sewer??? You will have to bung them a few quid and sort out the legal stuff to allow you to have this easement set up but would be still cheaper than major road works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Is it worth considering switching to a treatment plant (do you have space?), since 15k is a lorra lorra money and the local system seems complex and deep enough to have a Minotaur hiding in it somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Ok, thanks Guys Let me tell you the 2 houses marked in green above are all on Cesspits (as is our inlaws) that road northwards leads to a little village church and on our side of the road very few houses some of them VERY old and from what i can gather the only few that are on mains have had to dig up the road, across the road to the newer development I am guessing which is out of sight on the left of the map. the neighbour is a nice guy, but comes across as a very private person..even when we wanted to LOOK into his manhole it seemed to take 30 seconds of consideration, so I am surmising that it will be a 99% chance of a "No" to dig across his block paved drive to a manhole that he may think COULD become overloaded with other peoples ...how shall i say "tom tit" Regarding money, i think he and his wife are doctors, or anaesthetist or something and I can't see a brown envelope and bottle of Pinot Grigio cutting it . ..they probably earn more in a year than i do in ten! ...So I guess its back to basics ... We could find space for a treatmant plant ..but to be honest with the Polystorm hole in the back and the extensive pipework to channel it means it will probably end up close to the 5/7k anyway ....and to be honest we have experience off cesspits (i know a plant is different) but my wife will equate it with a cesspit , and that mean emptying 4 times a year, the end of the garden smelling like an egyptian gutter and the joy of standing in wellies with a long rod 3 or 4 times a year shouting down the garden ...."is it going down yet" ....nope, she definitely wont go for it ...She is one of the type that when they produce a "richard the third" .....wants it to move as far and as fast as possible away from whence it came Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 The problem with a treatment plant is finding somewhere for the liquid effluent to discharge to, which means some form of soakaway or discharge to a watercourse. It can take a surprising amount of land for a soakaway and I would be surprised if that garden has enough land. So you are then looking at what is behind you and if the landowner will consent to having a soakaway under his land (what is that roughly triangle shaped bit of land behind them?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I'm pretty sure that since the changes to the law that forced the water companies to take ownership of shared foul drains, drains that had previously been the responsibility of the householder, they will now not allow you to connect to a shared foul drain under someone else's land, they will insist that you connect to a main sewer, preferably at a manhole. The may allow you to connect to a main sewer where there isn't a manhole, but they will have to be persuaded that it doesn't interfere with the function of the main sewer and that there is adequate rodding access from an access point that is within a set distance from the sewer, as they will take over responsibility for that new lateral as soon as it is completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 56 minutes ago, ProDave said: The problem with a treatment plant is finding somewhere for the liquid effluent to discharge to, which means some form of soakaway or discharge to a watercourse. It can take a surprising amount of land for a soakaway and I would be surprised if that garden has enough land. So you are then looking at what is behind you and if the landowner will consent to having a soakaway under his land (what is that roughly triangle shaped bit of land behind them?) that "triangle" bit of land Dave is where I am building my house the little square on it were old sheds ...I have cleared them off now and its ready for action! ...only fate, finance and the BCO stand in my way LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Ah yes I remember now, I took a while to connect the dots. So is this drain connection through your in-laws house also going to serve your plot? If the cost is split between two it starts to become more feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Some say that water divining works. Now here is a real test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I am one that can "do" and believe in divining. Not sure it will find a dry empty drain, but there's a fair chance it will find a drain with water in it. Indeed the day I found I could do it, was when my BIL gave me his rods and said "have a go" so I slowly walked across his yard and suddenly the sticks swung together. "That's a drain pipe you have just walked over" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I am going to Bucks in a months time, so we can all meet up in MK and I can be proved wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Bloody Hell. ...its starting to sound a bit Voodoo here, stumbling around the block paving all poking each other with birch twigs I am presuming though if this is a spur there ...then it definitely wont have anything running in it ...So even if i hoped the "powers" were with us on the day ...I fear we would be on a loser .... I have ANOTHER drainage guy coming tomorrow ...Lets see what he can tell us ...They are all keen to get the job, only too happy to pop by with 2 hooks and a torch . but once the "spur" is mentioned it normally goes quiet and before you know it ...the BMW is back up the road and they havent even finished their brew I have learned one thing today .... I have to be careful next time i order some drain rods online ! Edited February 19, 2018 by Ed_MK 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 My BIL uses 2 bits of welding rod. My own divining rods are the left over bucket handles when a couple of 99p builders buckets met their end, straightened out, and a 90 degree bend at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 4 hours ago, Ed_MK said: poking each other with birch twigs You went to a CofE school then. How about calling up the local metal detectorists, or archaeologists saying you found some treasure. Or the police and saying you burred the Brinks Matt millions there. Ground penetrating radar is another things to try as the diviners are already crying off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Well as i said i have a new "expert" coming tomorrow... I think what has them all flummoxed is that if you LOOK at my neighbours manhole it is set up to travel AWAY from where we all think it should (red arrow shows direction of waste in manhole) I am correct in thinking that the Anglian water "arrows" shows direction of the drain and not source? surely that would be nuts LOL !?!? So why oh why would a person lay a drain (or lateral) that points AGAINST the flow ?..it is DEFFO going up the footpath and it appears ....(which would be insane) is heading roughly to 6901.. although none of them have "lifted" that yet as they say it is not possible that they would connect to that one.. ...which TBH i seem to agree with. I mean these manholes are NOT new, and could be there since the road was extended in the 80's at the latest early 90's and the neighbours manhole has for SURE gone in in the last 7 years Edited February 19, 2018 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 The direction arrows should be the direction of flow. My experience with Wessex Water was that they didn't really know where some of their pipes were, as a large part of the network predates the formation of the water companies and may even predate the old water boards that preceded them. In our case the village had it's own small water corporation, set up in the late Victorian era, and as well as the records of positions being in error or lost, there are pipes that the water company own that they don't even know of! What was fairly common practice was to run a private sewer along a row of houses and then have that connect to a main sewer at one point. From your plan, and the approximate date of construction of the nearby houses, do you think it's possible that there is what would have been a private sewer that runs along under the front gardens of the houses in the rough direction of your arrow? Our last house had this arrangement, it was in a row of four built at the same time and there was an 8" (I think) sewer running across the front gardens of all four, then connecting to the main sewer in the lane at one end. In the past these private sewers were the responsibility of each householder, but relatively recently the law changed and made them the responsibility of the water companies. As above, though, my experience has been that the water companies have no knowledge of these old private sewers; they add them to their drawings as and when they come across one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_MK Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Its Quite possible, and SOME of the neighbours (who have been here from the get go) seem to recall that houses had "spurs" but they are not sure and the ones that have been here longest are now very long retired in most cases, and see no need to come off their cesspits. The 2 questions I have, taking into account what you say is 1. If there WERE spurs originally (put in in the 80's) then how come the houses built between say 85-95 did not connect to them, at least not until recently...and only THEN because they were being sold at the time ...presumable as next buyers would not like the idea of the "pits" 2. If there is a private drain running down the lane, and bearing in mind that to the north of my image until it was build up int he last say 7-10 years there was literally a handful of cottages just up the road, presumably ALL still on pits. The church does not have any toilets at all ...and thats literally at the top of the road...So if there WAS one put in later say ...in the 80's why would they appear to have fitted it in a contraflow way ?! Even older maps seem to show the sewer in that position and following the line of the "brook" towards the main road (off to the left) ...which makes sense (sigh) hopefully today the mystery will be cracked by a man, a rod, and a camera .... Edited February 20, 2018 by Ed_MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 It's anyone's guess really, but often the run of pipes being put in by a developer seems to run to the shallowest entry point to the main sewer, presumably because it's cheaper/easier to just have relatively shallow trenches, plus there is also a problem with pipe gradients - foul drains/sewers cannot run down steep slopes, as they will get blockages, so a back drop chamber has to be added to reduce the gradient to an acceptable level. The problem relates to the flow rate and separation of solids from liquids, I believe. If the gradient is too steep the liquids flow faster and leave the solids behind, and they then build up until the block the pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 59 minutes ago, JSHarris said: If the gradient is too steep the liquids flow faster and leave the solids behind, and they then build up until the block the pipe A while ago I spoke with someone at Polypipe and they said that this is not the case. Also, building regs do not state maximum gradients. It is however recommended that an access point is provided at a change in gradient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Just now, Mr Punter said: A while ago I spoke with someone at Polypipe and they said that this is not the case. Also, building regs do not state maximum gradients. It is however recommended that an access point is provided at a change in gradient. That's interesting, as the foul drain on the very first house we bought used to regularly block, and the reason we were given by everyone that came out to clear it was that it was too steep. There seem to be other references to having too steep a gradient, too, for the same reason I was told around 35 years ago, although I'm not at all sure of their veracity. I do know that the purpose of a back drop chamber is specifically to avoid having too steep a gradient, though, so there must be something behind it. A quick look around found these, non-definitive, quotes: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12674&page=1 the relevant post being a quote allegedly from a government website (which I can't find) that is: Quote "If a gradient is too steep i.e. steeper than 1 in 40, the liquid may run faster than the solids in the sloping foul water pipe thus leaving the solids stranded, which could then block the pipe. If the gradient is not steep enough, i.e. less than 1 in 110, then the pipe could still block if the solids slow down and become stranded." Much the same appears on this website, too: http://www.arca53.dsl.pipex.com/index_files/drain7.htm and this one: http://www.drainageconsultantsltd.co.uk/about-drains/drainage-gradients-falls/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 28 minutes ago, JSHarris said: That's interesting, as the foul drain on the very first house we bought used to regularly block, and the reason we were given by everyone that came out to clear it was that it was too steep. There seem to be other references to having too steep a gradient, too, for the same reason I was told around 35 years ago, although I'm not at all sure of their veracity. I do know that the purpose of a back drop chamber is specifically to avoid having too steep a gradient, though, so there must be something behind it. A quick look around found these, non-definitive, quotes: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12674&page=1 the relevant post being a quote allegedly from a government website (which I can't find) that is: Much the same appears on this website, too: http://www.arca53.dsl.pipex.com/index_files/drain7.htm and this one: http://www.drainageconsultantsltd.co.uk/about-drains/drainage-gradients-falls/ The relevant concept is 'self-cleansing velocity' iirc, where the solids neither get left behind or dropped. http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_self_cleansing_velocity_for_a_drain Pointed put to me at an open drain running through a park in a valley in the centre of Luxembourg when I were a lad. Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, JSHarris said: That's interesting, as the foul drain on the very first house we bought used to regularly block, and the reason we were given by everyone that came out to clear it was that it was too steep. That is interesting. I always followed the same reasoning about the liquid leaving solids stranded, but the system manufacturers and Building Regs make no mention of this being an issue. How steep was your blocked drain, and did it block in the same part of the run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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