Unpleasant Discharge!

[Ed_MK]

Well the foundations should be going in soon,

the ground-workers are all lined up for clearing the plot ..

 

but Stop!

 

We found out a few days ago that 4 (of my 11 conditions) need to be signed off before 

we do ANY work, expressly making an entrance to the site from the road ...(sigh)

 

anyway i have all the stuff they need so i fired it over, but then got told that i need to 

fill in this DISCHARGE form ...which looks like a mini planning app

 

But what i didn't think was that each time i ask for a condition to be "ticked off"

i pay some dosh!

 

So i read the attached advice from the site, and was under the impression (see what you guys think)

that if i submit ONE form, with the 4 conditions on it ...as there is provision to list several conditions on it: 

then it should be one fee

 

although i was told on the phone it is one fee PER condition

 

 

[ragg987]

The table is quite clear on this. £34 per request, each request is for one or more condition.

 

Our council (AVDC) accepted one fee for multiple conditions, I discharged them all through one application.

[Ed_MK]

8 minutes ago, ragg987 said:

The table is quite clear on this. £34 per request, each request is for one or more condition.

 

Our council (AVDC) accepted one fee for multiple conditions, I discharged them all through one application.

thats what i asked

and he came back with its £34 x 4 so pay £136 on the portal website

i thought FUDGE!

 

I wish i could do them all at once ...but the rest of them relate to stuff that wont get done until the frame and 

driveway get done ...so i cant do them yet ..and just want to get the "boys" in with the machines to get the place flat

etc

 

also its the only way i can get the chemical toilet onto site ....as of next week it will be sat on the road as a public convenience LOL
 

[Ferdinand]

The principle is cost-recovery.

 

I think they are mistaken in asking for £136 given the multi-option, so I suggest you challenge that.

 

Just be glad you aren't a commercial bod at £234. I wonder what charities pay?

 

Locally at the moment near here there is a portaloo tied to a lamp-post on the old A38.

 

F

Edited February 17, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

It is amazing how councils vary. I dealt with all my pre commencement conditions by email with the planning officer, at no cost whatsoever. When they were all satisfed I got an email, followed up by a letter, stating all the pre commencement conditions had been satisfied.

[richi]

I may be thinking too simplistically, but are you actually asking for confirmation that you've discharged the condition, or are you merely notifying them?

[Ed_MK]

Well Richi,

 

I do have 11 conditions ....quite straightfoward actually, most regard the building later on, which is no surprise as it is conservation area,

and i don't argue with any of them;

 

but 4 of them must be "satisfied" to get to the foundation stage. I have all the materials in hand to satisfy (3), i have the drawing to satisfy (7), the groundworkers are supplying all the necessary heras fencing, and i have the signs etc and we have had an arboricultural report for (10) and I have the drawing here for (11)

 

and here they are as on my planning letter:

 

( 3) No development shall take place above slab level until samples and/or details of the external materials to be used in the construction of the development have been submitted and approved in writing by the local planning authority. The development shall thereafter be carried out in full accordance with the approved details prior to the first occupation of the development.
 

( 7) No development shall take place until details of the proposed finished floor levels of all buildings and the finished ground levels of the site, in relation to existing site levels of surrounding property, has been submitted to and approved by the Local Planning Authority. The development shall thereafter be carried out in accordance with the approved levels.
 

(10) All existing trees, woodlands and hedgerows to be retained as shown on the approved plans shall be fully protected in accordance with the latest British Standards (currently BS 5837:2012 'Trees in relation to design, demolition and construction Recommendations') by the time construction begins. All protective measures must be in place prior to the commencement of any building operations (including any structural alterations, construction, rebuilding, demolition and site clearance, removal of any trees or hedgerows, engineering operations, groundworks, vehicle movements or any other operations normally undertaken by a person carrying on a business as a builder). The Root Protection Area (RPA) within the protective fencing must be kept free of all construction, construction plant, machinery, personnel, digging and scraping, service runs, water-logging, changes in level, building materials and all other operations. All protective measures shall be maintained in place and in good order until all work is complete and all equipment, machinery and surplus materials have been removed from the site.
 

(11) Prior to commencement of ground works, a drainage strategy (including surface water) shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Local planning Authority. The development shall be carried out in accordance with the approved details.
 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

@Ed_MK

 

 I have spent a bit of time digging into this, and I still think you are right.

 

The bit of law which sets the fees is (deep breath):

 

Quote

The Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) Regulations 2012 (Link)

 

Section 16 Subsections 1 and 2 say:

 

Quote

Fees for confirmation of compliance with condition attached to planning permission

16.—(1) Where a request is made to a local planning authority for written confirmation of compliance with a condition or conditions attached to a grant of planning permission, a fee shall be paid to that authority as follows—

(a)where the request relates to a permission for development which falls within category 6 or 7 specified in the table set out in Part 2 of Schedule 1, £28 for each request;
(b)where the request relates to a permission for development which falls within any other category of that Schedule, £97 for each request.

 

(2) Any fee paid under this regulation shall be refunded if the local planning authority fails to give the written confirmation requested within a period of twelve weeks beginning on the date on which the authority received the request.
 

 

Clearly this refers to a single request which may contain 1 or umpteen conditions.

 

So I would send it all off in one package with one form, and be ready to have a vigorous but polite conversation if necessary.

 

The reason for the £28 each is because all the fees went up by 20% on ... er ... the 17th of January, having been flat for about a decade. 

 

So far, so clear. But reading '"the table set out in Part 2 of Schedule 1", a new dwellinghouse does not seem clearly to me to fall within category 6 or 7 - which if true would mean a higher fee. But they do not appear to do that, and I hope I am wrong. So get that form sent off.

 

Might be worth an email to the RTPI Planning Aid service if you need to absolutely confirm, or a phone call if you short of time. See the RTPI website.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

Our planning condition discharge form is worded in exactly the same way, in that it says:

 

Quote

Request for confirmation that one or more planning conditions have been complied with

 

I paid a single fee for the first request, which was to discharge several pre-commencement planning conditions, and then paid a second single fee to discharge the remaining planning conditions once we had finished the house.

 

So I am certain that it should be as the form says, that the fee is for the request, not the number of conditions in that request.

[Ed_MK]

thanks guys,

 

I will send the 4 x copies of the Discharge form, with 4 x DVD-R to include all the drawings and stuff with 4 x Housebricks , 4 x Slates in a big box next week 

Oh ....and a cheque for £34

 

see what happens.

 

If they sit on it for 6 months because of underpayment I know who to blame LOL

 

[Ferdinand]

14 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

thanks guys,

 

I will send the 4 x copies of the Discharge form, with 4 x DVD-R to include all the drawings and stuff with 4 x Housebricks , 4 x Slates in a big box next week 

Oh ....and a cheque for £34

 

see what happens.

 

If they sit on it for 6 months because of underpayment I know who to blame LOL

 

They have a 12 week deadline to reply then you get your money back and possibly an auto yes iirc.

[Jeremy Harris]

You can put all four conditions on the same form, that ensures that they only treat it as one request.

 

What I did was very briefly list the pre-commencement conditions, by name and number, on the form, with a note that the evidence showing that these had been discharged was attached.  I then attached a document with the evidence.

 

By sending one form, you are cutting off one avenue for them trying to charge you four times.  I've attached a PDF of our pre-commencement conditions evidence document that I attached to the form that may help:

 

Planning Condition Discharge.pdf

[Ed_MK]

thank J,

very helpful (as usual)

 

by the way did you actually BUILD that scale model ?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

thank J,

very helpful (as usual)

 

by the way did you actually BUILD that scale model ?

 

 

Yes, in fact I built several, all different iterations of the design!  The main reason for that one was to easily show people how the house would look in it's setting.  I found that a lot of people, particularly some of the neighbours and most of the Parish Council planning committee, were unable to visualise what something would look like from just 2D plans.

 

Because one of the people that was unable to imagine what spaces would be like from plans was my other half, I also made this model, with a lift off roof and first floor, so she could see the scale of the internal rooms.  I made this model to a larger scale, 1:50, simply because you can buy cheap plastic models of people at 1:50 that are intended for railway modellers, so I could add people inside the house to get a better idea of the true scale.

 

[Ed_MK]

Well I only dropped it off this morning....and i got the FASTEST EVER REPLY by email about 30 mins ago...

...shame its not what i wanted to hear ?

 

Would it be wise to start an argument with the people responsible for giving me building regulation approval?

The wife says No...(regardless of how the guidance reads)

 

So a new cheque for £116 is on its way in !

 

I keep forgetting ...we are the LITTLE PEOPLE

 

*still not sure how they worked out the £116 ..but hey ho 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Ed_MK

[Bitpipe]

On 18/02/2018 at 15:20, Ferdinand said:

They have a 12 week deadline to reply then you get your money back and possibly an auto yes iirc.

 

Our LA missed this deadline and I got a refund.

 

I'd submitted a lot of material, I think I had about 8 conditions to discharge before starting.

 

I poked them at 8 weeks and then again at 10, finally at 12. 

 

I then got a blanket acceptance, tbh I doubt they even read the submission.

[Ferdinand]

@Ed_MK

 

Update: 

 

HAving read a bit more, I think a new dwelling on a new plot is not a Householder Application, and they are correctly charging you £116 for a single request to discharge multiple conditions.

 

The explanation is clumsy, but I think people who got away with the Householder Application fee have been lucky.

 

That, as Cadbury's used to say on their 'describe in 10 words' competitions, is one for you to decide using your skill and judgement !

 

Personally I would consider challenging it if I thought they were wrong, and might talk to the Council legal department. But you are unlikely to build more than one house, where I hope eventually to build a series.

 

HOwever, unless you challenge it you are committed to paying another 7 of these (6 extra = approx £200 OTT) if they charge 7x34 at the end of the project for the other conditions if this is how they calculate it. At the end may be a more opportune time to clarify.

 

The only way I can see that they got to £116 was either because they cannot add up or if they are treating it as a charge per request (which they have denied) and you as a non-Householder application. THough I have highlighted one way in which I think a new dwelling application may be outside the relevant category.

 

The planner has only cited his own opinion rather than quoting law. Was It the same officer repeating his misunderstanding? YOu could ask for chapter and verse to justify it.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ed_MK]

hmmm..I think I will argue "retrospectively" as I am in a bit of a rush.

 

I have been give a "groundworker start date" of the 5th March !

and to be honest I won't be able to let them start UNTIL i get these signed off...

 

To be honest I think I am already "urinating into the breeze" dreaming it can happen in time.

 

But the alternative is to get the new "work window" in about 8 weeks    ..so the site stands still and by this time

I will have ALL the documents in place to put in for building regs ! anyway 

 

But what a WASTE of 2 months .....(sigh)

[Ferdinand]

Updated above.

 

F

Edited February 19, 2018 by Ferdinand
Added to previous post

[Ed_MK]

Just my Luck Ferdy ! ...story of my life ,,,

 

As Mike Harding once said 

 

"..so unlucky that if he fell into a barrel of t*ts ...he would come up sucking his thumb"

[Ed_MK]

Well today I had ANOTHER call from the Council,

this time the Building Control.

 

Basically they wanted £800 for the application and periodic checks (which i expected)

 

But then it got very twisty-turny

 

I told them I had put in for some discharges already with planning so that I can start work..

.......apparently thats a different issue, different department etc ..this is for the Building Regs.

 

I told them I had everything in hand, except the bundle from the Timber frame architect ...which COULD take another month.

.......At which point they informed me UNTIL, these were filed i could do NO WORK AT ALL.

 

I said, yes apart from the work i asked for under the 4 conditions i have paid £116 for yesterday.

.......And again they said if it involved DIGGING at all then it is a building control issue and you would need to have paid and submitted FULL

plans

 

I said so what have i paid for £116

.......Apparently, thats a different department and so they cannot comment

 

So I cant actually do ANYTHING for another Month

.......No, longer,  Building regs can take up to 2 months to be fully approved, and so until initial admin and first inspection has been done
Nothing can be back filled in 

 

So it could take another 8-9 weeks until i can get a frame erected, regardless of anything else

.......Exactly

 

Apparently I have filled in a FULL application and not a "building notice" and this requires the full fee and the period

to process ( i may have done)

 

Apparently I also filled in asking for no 2 month extension or partial approval ( i may have done)

 

I said I wasn't an expert and just completed what i was advised by planning on the phone

.......Well that was a different department Sir

 

 

I thought I was certainly smart enough to be able to do this myself ....but now I am having doubts.

Should it be THIS DIFFICULT, or should i say CONFUSING for the layman?

 

I should stick to configuring e-commerce transaction servers and databases ....at least they kind of make sense

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The problem is that the council don't run building control, it's a self-funding entity within the council, but at arms length from it in many ways.  This was done when they opened up the market for building inspection, allowing building inspection companies to carry out building control work.  At that time, the council building control departments were hived off into an entity called LABC (Local Authority Building Control) that is effectively a nation wide** organisation, that can even offer warranties.

 

** At least in England.  Scotland is different, they retained the old system they had I think, not sure about Wales or NI.

[Ian]

8 minutes ago, Ed_MK said:

Well today I had ANOTHER call from the Council,

this time the Building Control.

 

Basically they wanted £800 for the application and periodic checks (which i expected)

 

But then it got very twisty-turny

 

I told them I had put in for some discharges already with planning so that I can start work..

.......apparently thats a different issue, different department etc ..this is for the Building Regs.

 

I told them I had everything in hand, except the bundle from the Timber frame architect ...which COULD take another month.

.......At which point they informed me UNTIL, these were filed i could do NO WORK AT ALL.

 

I said, yes apart from the work i asked for under the 4 conditions i have paid £116 for yesterday.

.......And again they said if it involved DIGGING at all then it is a building control issue and you would need to have paid and submitted FULL

plans

 

I said so what have i paid for £116

.......Apparently, thats a different department and so they cannot comment

 

So I cant actually do ANYTHING for another Month

.......No, longer,  Building regs can take up to 2 months to be fully approved, and so until initial admin and first inspection has been done
Nothing can be back filled in 

 

So it could take another 8-9 weeks until i can get a frame erected, regardless of anything else

.......Exactly

 

Apparently I have filled in a FULL application and not a "building notice" and this requires the full fee and the period

to process ( i may have done)

 

Apparently I also filled in asking for no 2 month extension or partial approval ( i may have done)

 

I said I wasn't an expert and just completed what i was advised by planning on the phone

.......Well that was a different department Sir

 

 

I thought I was certainly smart enough to be able to do this myself ....but now I am having doubts.

Should it be THIS DIFFICULT, or should i say CONFUSING for the layman?

 

I should stick to configuring e-commerce transaction servers and databases ....at least they kind of make sense

 

 

 

Have you already paid the LA Building Control?

If not then I’d talk to some local Approved Inspectors to see if you are still able to go with them instead of the LA. You’ll find that they will be much more accommodating.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Ian

[Ed_MK]

Thanks Ian,

 

but isn't there a DOWNSIDE of not using the councils own ?

 

I am thinking of price

communications

delays

not to forget the old "blame game"

 

I am no expert with buildings, but i find the more reds in the way of anything in life  ...makes it harder to pot the black

as Hurricane Higgins once said 

 

(perhaps, in a lucid moment he would have)

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Ed_MK

[dpmiller]

Surely the groundworks you need permission for are any commencements. Any precommencements (clearance, site levelling and land drainage) are F-all to do with BC.