60 Year Old Water Main

[Onoff]

Bugger! 

Noticed a "rushing" water sound this afternoon within the house. With every water using thing off I traipsed out to the water meter to see the digital meter whizzing round. From the stopcock and meter OUTSIDE the boundary it comes in in old STEEL, from the right of the picture, under the fence. Originally it came to this, another stopcock and meter:

I've had this second meter taken out so now there's just a second stopcock inside the fence. Either side of the above stopcock in the picture is a bit of MDPE but original STEEL either side of the MDPE assembly. The steel is circa 60 years old. So, going to the left of the above picture it runs under the lawn; lilac bush, mature conifers etc all in steel. Then under the concrete path around the house, I think under the front bedroom and then comes up in the bathroom to a new stopcock:

Of course this is where I've just concreted the new floor so the corner might have to come up! Mentioning to the missus that I said about replacing the water main before I did the floor I got "So it's my fault now is it?" 

Closing this stopcock and the rushing sound is still heard. There's nothing getting past it as I've connected a bit of drain hose to the new drain cock and with the stopcock shut and drain open there's still the rushing sound but nothing comes out of the drain cock.

So something like 30m lawn to dig up and inspect / replace the old steel. Sod's Law my mate with the digger is on holiday. Again we've had the discussion about future issues with the trees.....

No obvious pooling on the ground but then the pipe's about 2' deep. Any clever way of pinpointing a the major leak? Dowsing? (Seriously).

Edited June 20, 2016 by Onoff

[Jeremy Harris]

Use a listening rod.  It's a rod around 4ft long with a cup on the end that you stick over your ear.  Poke it on the ground along the run of the pipe and you'll be able to pinpoint where the leak is.  It's what the water company use, believe it or not.  It works a bit like a stethoscope.

You can probably make one.  The ones I've seen have been something like a fibreglass tent pole, with a hard rubber disc on the end you hold hard against your ear.

[DavidFrancis]

Try ringing your water company - they might find it for you and even fix it for you if you're lucky.

Last week Unitied Utilities offered to try to find a bit of buried garden pipe for the in-laws for nowt.

[Onoff]

12 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Use a listening rod.  It's a rod around 4ft long with a cup on the end that you stick over your ear.  Poke it on the ground along the run of the pipe and you'll be able to pinpoint where the leak is.  It's what the water company use, believe it or not.  It works a bit like a stethoscope.

You can probably make one.  The ones I've seen have been something like a fibreglass tent pole, with a hard rubber disc on the end you hold hard against your ear.

Thanks for that. Had a quick search on the subject and it seems plumbers often use a 4' length of copper tube. Tomorrow's fun!

All a quick eBay search for "listening rod" brought up was Rod Stuart! 

[Onoff]

My kinda guy, Sod's Law one of the neighbours will be on his mower when I try:

 

[Onoff]

One "method" I read of was to take a 3 or 4 foot length of studding and grind a flat ended  "spade" on the end. Then use this in your cordless to drill down thru the lawn to find the leak.....sort of. I suppose you get a little "geyser" if you strike lucky. The idea of the flat end is so as not to drill thru if it's a plastic pipe. Don't think I'd want to chance it on MDPE tbh! Might have a crack as mines's steel though.

My money's on a tree root.

[SteamyTea]

10 hours ago, Onoff said:

All a quick eBay search for "listening rod" brought up was Rod Stuart!

Sir Rod Stewart now.

He has come great lines in his songs.

From Italian Girls.  "She was tall, thin and tarty, and she drove a Maserati"

From Three Times Loser "While I'm jackin' off readin' Playboy on a hot afternoon"

[Stones]

One of my new neighbours tried divining the position of the 6 inch main we are connected to.  The rods crossed exactly at the point we expected the water main to be, however on excavating, we found the rods had picked up the foundation of an old stone wall.  The water main was 2 metres away.

[Onoff]

.....party copied from other thread:

Anyway, no obvious wet patches on the ground. Tried the stethoscope atop the styrofoam cup on a bit of 3" plastic down pipe like in the video above. Could hear the rushing water with the pipe end directly on the steel / MDPE pipes down the pit but 2' above, trying to listen down through the clay, not a peep. Tried the stethoscope then on a bit of thick wall steel tube and tbh MUCH sharper than the plastic pipe but again no good 2' above it. Quite a lot of ambient noise. Tried later when dark & quieter but still no joy. Even stuck a 4' length of M10 studding in the cordless and punched a few holes in the ground along what may be the pipe route - no geysers yet.

It doesn't help that I don't know the exact route. It's allegedly "up the side of the path" but that doesn't tie up with the pipe being a straight line from the meter inside the fence to where it comes up in the house.

Looking like tonight it'll be a case of getting physical and (hand) digging  a perpendicular, exploratory trench across where I think it may be. Oh joy!

Fair play to the old boys in the 1930's or whenever who dug the trench AND our cesspool by hand.

 

[Onoff]

Got the water board coming out for a "first hour free" investigation on the pipe our side. Girl on the phone said they have a special bit of kit & ALWAYS find it so there shouldn't be a charge. If they can't pinpoint it (within the hour) then plan B and digger time! Thinking it could be:

- Age of pipe

- Mature tree roots in the garden

- Incoming main passes under the path that encircles the house. I've stacked rubble bags full of hardcore on the path. Crushed it?

- Where the main comes up in the corner of the bathroom I've obviously knocked out and re-laid that concrete floor. I was careful though to wrap the pipe and protect during the pour.

Soon know hopefully!

[Nickfromwales]

Age of pipe mate. Bags of shat wouldn't have even worried it. . 

What about the section of pipe that goes into where your stopcock currently is? 

[Nickfromwales]

Eg, maybe a good time / opportunity to redirect the mains if necessary?

[Onoff]

48 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

What about the section of pipe that goes into where your stopcock currently is? 

Same iron pipe that comes up from the road. Not sure of the route it takes from where it goes into the floor above in the OP. I've had the suspended floors up in the adjacent rooms and there's no sign of it. Must be deep under the dirt below. Might borrow the FiL's metal detector.

[Nickfromwales]

If there's enough metal left to detect 

 

[Onoff]

Water board guy turns up:

Nice guy, east European, has attended before when we had a leak on their MDPE elbow. So he does the listening stick bit up the garden to no avail. Comes into the house and gut feel from the noise is it's the "house end" rather than across the lawn. 

He then goes out to his van and comes back with DIVINING RODS saying it's unofficial but that he was trained how to use them way back when in Serbia or wherever it is he comes from. I wasn't here but the wife reckons he does his thing and they "move". He reckons its slap bang under the centre of the downstairs playroom.

Guess what I'm doing this weekend? 

[PeterW]

So if its in the house isn't it an insurance job..??

[Onoff]

17 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So if its in the house isn't it an insurance job..??

Don't know never claimed on it tbh. Wife would probably moan that the premium would go up!

[ProDave]

55 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Water board guy turns up:

Nice guy, east European, has attended before when we had a leak on their MDPE elbow. So he does the listening stick bit up the garden to no avail. Comes into the house and gut feel from the noise is it's the "house end" rather than across the lawn. 

He then goes out to his van and comes back with DIVINING RODS saying it's unofficial but that he was trained how to use them way back when in Serbia or wherever it is he comes from. I wasn't here but the wife reckons he does his thing and they "move". He reckons its slap bang under the centre of the downstairs playroom.

Guess what I'm doing this weekend? 

Now I am a "believer" in dowsing in that I have been able to find a pipe before. But to be able to pinpoint where a leak is by that method? Greatest respect to him if he is right. Do let us know.

[Onoff]

I might add that officially, on his report, he had to put down that he was unable to find the leak.

[Nickfromwales]

14 hours ago, Onoff said:

He reckons its slap bang under the centre of the downstairs playroom.

Guess what I'm doing this weekend? 

My only fear is that the pipe you expose isn't good enough to repair. Where does the cold mains come into the house at the moment? Did the water guy give you any indication of where the pipe runs, eg how does it get from street to house?

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

My only fear is that the pipe you expose isn't good enough to repair. Where does the cold mains come into the house at the moment? Did the water guy give you any indication of where the pipe runs, eg how does it get from street to house?

My thoughts exactly, I could dig up what is a rather fragile pipe held together by the surrounding ground and it could disintegrate / make things worse.

No, the water guy gave no indication with his stick as to the overall route as he couldn't hear it through the lawn. He commented that the higher the pitch of the sound tends to mean it's in / nearer the house. We think it's a straight line from the stopcock near the fence: under the lawn about 2' deep, under the concrete path around the house, under the suspended floor again deep under the dirt below then up as in the first post. But we could be wrong.....

The wife said he used the divining rods three times, showing the same effect to seemingly pinpoint where he thinks it is.

Just trying to coerce the missus to start clearing the playroom so I lift the carpets and start! I might, before lifting boards, first off whack a Cavity Master inspection hole in the floor board exactly over where he said.

 

[ProDave]

This was a ticking time bomb I had at a previous house, our old 1930's semi.

I know the incoming pipe was steel, and rusting. If you went away on holiday and came back, the first thing I did was turn the kitchen tap on to purge the slug of brown rusty water that had buiolt up while it was standing.  To make matters worse there was one stopcock in the road that served the pair of semi detached houses. So apart from not knowing where the pipe ran, and where it branched, any replacement would have to involve the neighbour.

Thankfully we sold the house before it started leaking but I guarantee at some time it will become a problem.

In your situation, I see little point digging up the floor. What are you going to find? an unrepairable rusty leaking pipe and the act of distrurbing it might make it a whole lot worse.

I would seriously think of laying in a new mdpe pipe into the house, and trenching it all the way to the stopcock then getting the water company to swap it over.  Does your kitchen for instance have a suspended floor? if so bring it in there rather than into the bathroom.

[joe90]

+1, new pipe all the way. I had a similar pipe in my last house but knew I was selling so didn't invest in renewing it before it broke. Peace of mind is very worthwhile if you are staying there.

[Nickfromwales]

+2

Dont waste any time looking for the leak, whilst turning your house inside out, just reroute now. If you cant get your mate to dig yet, buy some 25mm alk and just dig where the main stop tap is and make a temp run, surface mounted. Leave a load of slack in the pipe so you can bury it and then get the WB to connect it accordingly. 

Make the temp connection to the steel pipe just after the stop tap ( so you don't need the WB right away ) and back feed the house through the outside tap. That will allow you to just shut off the stopcock and isolate the leak.

Spend the time and effort on new, the old is not worth even thinking about chasing . 

[Onoff]

The biggest problem as it stands with the existing route is the digging the trench under the playroom. The dirt is bone dry and has obviously sat there for years with God knows what vermin under there. V.messy and time consuming. One saving grace is that the joists I'm pretty sure run in the direction of the pipe. Will still be a bitch digging by hand down between two joists!

My preferred option would be to trench up to the house then go around the perimeter and come in at the kitchen the other side of the house (as Dave says). Could possibly kill a few birds with one stone there as I could also get rid of the overhead SWA / catenary to the garage.

Depends how much digging the BiL's up for.